Why I carry

[bbbass]

Great thoughts group.
One thing I wonder about though, if shtf, you retreat to a rifle and come to the defense of others in a public or worse yet "gun free zone" how would the first cop on the scene know that YOU are a good guy with a gun???

You call 911 and tell them who you are and how you are dressed. But that's only if you choose to go, and if you do, you accept the risks. Now if the CHL boys decide to take a pop at you... then your toast.

 

[bbbass]

I just get tired of hearing the antigun crowd say that if you are not an uber-trained super duper soldier/LEO/govbackedfighter that you shouldn't have a gun.

 

[nammac]

I just get tired of hearing the antigun crowd say that if you are not an uber-trained super duper soldier/LEO/govbackedfighter that you shouldn't have a gun.

Amen...

Legislators cannot outlaw a God given right to self protection...

 

[Alexx1401]

[QUOTE="Alexx1401, post: 1702345, member: 44221" Hear them talk about sights, lack of need of them and such. Then get to range with them and they can't hit the paper.

This is a topic for a separate subject, but come to the range with me and I will show you that I don't need sights at 3', I don't need sights at 3yds, I don't need sights at 7yds. At distances beyond those, you bet I do. I say this after 20yrs of practical shooting during USPSA and IDPA competitions. Might not work for everybody tho.[/QUOTE]

I did not say this applies to everyone. I have shot with some people over the years that were VERY good. The problem is I have shot with a LOT more who talked a real great shot. Then you get to the range with them and they can't hit paper. The problem is if they can't even hit paper what's going to happen if someone is shooting back at them, or they are under stress. I try to tell them this is not like on TV where the bullets all magically only hit the bad guys.

 

[Alexx1401]

I just get tired of hearing the antigun crowd say that if you are not an uber-trained super duper soldier/LEO/govbackedfighter that you shouldn't have a gun.

The people who say that are also out waving signs saying they hate cops. That is until they need them. Then not only do they not have a gun, they then bubblegum and scream about why it took the cops so long to come help them.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

This is a topic for a separate subject, but come to the range with me and I will show you that I don't need sights at 3', I don't need sights at 3yds, I don't need sights at 7yds. At distances beyond those, you bet I do. I say this after 20yrs of practical shooting during USPSA and IDPA competitions. Might not work for everybody tho.

With one gun I have been successful consistently to 10 yards. Last couple months I have not gotten to the range much so I would not say I could demonstrate it right now. No further. most guns I would say 5 yards is more likely for me without aiming. I have tried and honestly have trained for that scenario, because IF i could do that, it would be in essence the holy grail of self defense IMO to be able to consistently react that fast. To be able to not use sights and know your gun well enough to instinctively shoot feels very far off to me, when you are talking other than belly gun ranges. My initial reason to attempt that was Puma. If I were ever surprised by one of those I surmised I would probably not have a chance to use sites for obvious reasons.

I don't have any competition experience. I do have experience hunting predators in thick brush, and am used to high stress high adrenaline threat analyzing environments. I have learned that my end result is best if I am quick, but take my time. If I am methodical and have muscle memory.

 

[etrain16]

This is a topic for a separate subject, but come to the range with me and I will show you that I don't need sights at 3', I don't need sights at 3yds, I don't need sights at 7yds. At distances beyond those, you bet I do. I say this after 20yrs of practical shooting during USPSA and IDPA competitions. Might not work for everybody tho.

Would you call this 'instinctive shooting'? The reason I ask is that I used to be part of a slingshot community and that is the term they used for aiming. With a slingshot, in 99% of the cases, you don't have sights, but you can be very, very accurate. I became quite good with practice and could hit bullseyes at 10 yards with 3/8" steel, consistently. Same goes for a blow gun - no sights, but accurate hits. If you learn that technique, it can also apply to a pistol, and I've done so. Of course there is more to it, such as trigger control, grip and stance, but there is definitely something to be said for shooting at closer distances without having to rely on the sights.

 

[11Charlie]

You guys bring up some really good points. I haven't shot my pistol with out sites for a long long time. I can totally see that there could be a scenario where that would and could come into play.

Guess I need to start doing that on a regular basis again.

 

[CoastRange57]

I do not think you guys are really giving yourself enough credit. Sure it is great to shoot and stay in practice, but it does not always work out. I have years of shooting experience, and a lot in the last 10 years. You develop muscle memory as mentioned, and the skill sets come back to you. All that in consideration, if you had to draw and fire at a close in threat, the chances of landing 5 of 7 say are pretty slim. There are a lot of YouTube videos that back this up.

We do a drill where we set up a target, then we have to stand there for a few minutes bullsh*tting and then some calls fire and you have to draw and fire at least 6 rounds at the target, generally at about 8 yards. No handling the gun, nothing. Just draw and fire. Variations are moving back, move to cover or no cover, closing and others. See how many you get on target, or better yet, can you put 50% inside the 8??

For those who are lacking the experience, I would of course recommend tactical training, but if you commit yourself to spending $ 500 to $ 1,000 on ammo and then getting at least 2,000 rounds out in less than 2 months, you will give yourself a good foundation of the marksmanship side of things, plus getting to know your weapons very well since there will be a lot of cleaning and maintenance involved. This will give you a start on the gun handling and shooting skills needed, and you can bring the tactical training in after you have the mechanics of the shooting down. Don't try and combine the two at the start, it does not work that well until later on. Until the marksmanship thing is down rote skills, you will not benefit from the tactical aspect at all.

 

[bbbass]

Would you call this 'instinctive shooting'? The reason I ask is that I used to be part of a slingshot community and that is the term they used for aiming. With a slingshot, in 99% of the cases, you don't have sights, but you can be very, very accurate. I became quite good with practice and could hit bullseyes at 10 yards with 3/8" steel, consistently. Same goes for a blow gun - no sights, but accurate hits. If you learn that technique, it can also apply to a pistol, and I've done so. Of course there is more to it, such as trigger control, grip and stance, but there is definitely something to be said for shooting at closer distances without having to rely on the sights.

Yup. It is also called "point shooting" and by some folks very denigrated.

Basically, at 3' the pistol will go where your arms go. At 3yds and 7yds you are pointing with the big bone in your trigger finger, it is natural to everyone, but also looking over the slide or barrel (revolver) just like you would on a shotgun. You can see your target really well and it is about 30% or more faster for most people. The thing is, "front sight, front sight" has been pounded into peoples heads so much that many will not even try this. If you do, you will like it. I train a lot, but anybody can do it... you just have to retrain your brain.

EDIT: IMO the problem with many that promote point shooting is that they approach it as an all or nothing. It's ridiculous to not use your sights when you get out in distance a bit. Each person needs to experiment at different times to determine what his/her own range limit is for instinctive shooting. I have watched people try to draw and bring their weapon up to use the sights on a person that is standing within 1' of them... it's crazy, what, you gonna push them out of the way? Nooooo, you hip shoot or belly shoot, don't need your sights for that. Just keep your offhand in a safe position so you don't shoot yourself.

 

[CoastRange57]

You call 911 and tell them who you are and how you are dressed. But that's only if you choose to go, and if you do, you accept the risks. Now if the CHL boys decide to take a pop at you... then your toast.

I have listened to two active shooter situations on the police radios. The Umpqua CC, and the San Bernadino incident. There is enough things going on in the preliminary stages of these incidents that even if you get that information to the dispatcher, the chances of it being relayed CORRECTLY, and in a timely manner to the boots, and their ability to process it and use it is going to be compromised by their overwhelming need to find and neutralize the shooter. At this point if you are holding a weapon, you will be the shooter and you will be neutralized regardless of your intent.

At the start of the incidents, there will be multiple officers responding. Hopefully there will be a Lt. or Captain who can assume the IC role and deploy the other officers, and call the shots. In most cases though, that IC is going to be involved in the hunt and shooting if that is the case. These are highly chaotic situations. There will be no real battle order or clear command presence for the first 15 minutes.

The priority for radio traffic is going to be between the officers and the dispatcher is going to have a hard time breaking in and relaying any information. The boots do not need any more information to process at that time.

The San Bernadino was a very chilling incident to listen to. In the one I was involved in, two officers were approaching with AR's and both were know personally to me. I was able to give them some information before they made their approach. The victim in this case, had got out of the building and was holding his own gun in the parking lot when confronted by the officers. He was put at AR point, I yelled that he was the good guy, the cops could trust my information, but that is not going to be the case with everybody. They still disarmed him. One took his gun while the other held cover on the building where the bad guy was. It was a very intense and dangerous situation. The cops will not and should not trust that type of information from strangers. The victim complied with the cops orders, and was brought out of the area for interview.

Best to leave if possible, but if you did the shooting, your gun best be on the ground and you better be 20 feet away from it with your hands high in the air. But don't expect that to count for much, some of us carry hide out / back up guns, officers carry back up guns and determined active shooters may carry back up guns as well.

 

[fredball]

why i carry
well I'm to old to take and azz whooping and to young too die

 

[bbbass]

For those who are lacking the experience, I would of course recommend tactical training, but if you commit yourself to spending $ 500 to $ 1,000 on ammo and then getting at least 2,000 rounds out in less than 2 months, you will give yourself a good foundation of the marksmanship side of things, plus getting to know your weapons very well since there will be a lot of cleaning and maintenance involved.

I agree with you CoastRange57. But I do have to say that is a lot of $$ and range time. Then you add in another $1k-2k for tactical training. This is not affordable for people like me that live on a limited income. The price you quote for ammo would be more like a 1-2yr level of affordability and the professional tactical training not affordable at all.

I don't have a problem with what you are recommending. The problem I do have is that the impression I get overall from reading here and what I hear out in the world, is that if you don't get professional training then you don't belong drawing your weapon on somebody. That is just not realistic, not proven historically, and frankly I think it is a lot driven by the people that stand to make $$ on training folks, as well as those just repeating dogma (like police chiefs do) cuz they don't want peons/subjects having guns. This probably has the effect of scaring off people that otherwise could feel safer or even defend themselves as so many already have. I find that bothersome.

As I mentioned, I got my target training on my own, and thru the military, although I was already a pretty good shot by then (I qualified expert on rifle and marksman on .45 pistol which I was not too familiar with and shooting at 25yds.) My tactical training I picked up shooting USPSA and more importantly IDPA. I perhaps have some holes in my understanding of certain remotely possible situations, but I do have a good understanding in many tactical areas and I promote IDPA to people as a way for poor folks to get some pretty good tactical training. We shoot from cover, we stand, crouch, kneel, shoot moving forward, backward, we have no-shoot targets interspersed (innocent bystanders or hostages), we shoot strong hand only, weak hand only, with a flashlight, from sitting, inside a car, multiple targets. BTW, these targets are torso and head and the scoring is not your standard bullseye. There are very few misses as they cost a substantial scoring penalty and shooters are encouraged to go slow and steady when first starting out. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. We are taught not to extend the pistol out past cover, we pie the corners, we keep our bodies behind cover while we lean out to shoot downrange. etc etc etc. The holes in the training that I can think of are: one handed reloading, and one handed malfunction clearing... these are not considered safe within this setting. This type of training is economical for many, $50 for membership and usually $15 for each shoot at most clubs. People with money might consider this to have holes in one's training, but I would maintain that you really don't know what you are getting from many so-called professionals. All the high priced training could be wrong. However, IDPA uses tried and true concepts that are applied across the board at clubs nationally.

 

[bbbass]

The San Bernadino was a very chilling incident to listen to. In the one I was involved in, two officers were approaching with AR's and both were know personally to me. I was able to give them some information before they made their approach.

Why were you there? Were you a LEO in another life?

 

[Chaffee]

I also added a spare mag to my EDC, but if going to the mall, a movie, or any other large gathering of fellow humans, I add the Galco Miami classic shoulder rig with a Glock 20 10mm under my left arm and two spare mags under my right. 2 pistols, 69 rounds, I do belive that having a gun isn't what keeps you alive, it helps, awareness and training is what up's your odds of survival.
My oldest daughter worked at Clackamas town center, luckily had that tragic day off, my youngest at the Walmart in Henderson, NV was blessed with the same luck. Both recieved handguns for 21st birthday's. Dad is happy to provide free ammo anytime they want to shoot. It's a effed up world we live in, we are responsible for our own survival.

 

[11Charlie]

I have to say that the cost of training like this is tough. With that said I could probably afford to do it with some money managment but it also comes down to time.

I work two full time jobs for the most part and then you have your family to take care of. Then there is your yard, home and everything else that comes in addition.

I plan on making time to do more things like this but for now my military urban training and the training that I do on going will have to work. I will take someone who trains like me over someone who does nothing any day of the week. Will I do everything perfectly no maybe not but I will go home to my family at the end of the day.

 

[CoastRange57]

Why were you there? Were you a LEO in another life?

I listened to the San Bernadino incident on the computer. It would be a good listen for anybody who wants to try and understand these situations. Most times if I hear of these incidents on Twitter usually, you can then tune up the radio frequencies in the areas and hear real time radio traffic.

Not an LEO at all. I have done a lot of training with off duty LEO and former military and I do a lot of research. Knowledge is good. Worked as an EMT for 8 years, and 911 dispatcher fill in in the same time. Worked a few tense situations. Not sure if you are giving me sh*t here though.

 

[CoastRange57]

I agree with you CoastRange57. But I do have to say that is a lot of $$ and range time. Then you add in another $1k-2k for tactical training. This is not affordable for people like me that live on a limited income. The price you quote for ammo would be more like a 1-2yr level of affordability and the professional tactical training not affordable at all.

I don't have a problem with what you are recommending. The problem I do have is that the impression I get overall from reading here and what I hear out in the world, is that if you don't get professional training then you don't belong drawing your weapon on somebody.

I completely hear what your are saying, and my comments are more directed at those who say " I am going to get a gun for protection. " Never having shot in their life or even had a basic level of instruction. The training you are citing is clearly more than a lot of CHL holders have. The training requirements for an Oregon CHL are a joke. They put concealed weapons in the hands of people who may have never fired a gun in their life, and may never even after getting a CHL. I have seen this happen many times.

I do not want to sound like I am bagging on anybody who cannot afford tactical training or immense amounts of ammunition. There are enough resources out there in cyber world that a person can develop some sense of training and ability at very little cost other than your time. The simple act of getting together with like minded people periodically is good enough to keep good skill sets up.

 

[CoastRange57]

I will take someone who trains like me over someone who does nothing any day of the week. Will I do everything perfectly no maybe not but I will go home to my family at the end of the day.

Exactly.

 

[CoastRange57]

why i carry
well I'm to old to take and azz whooping and to young too die

My variant on that is " I am too old to kick anybody's azz, but not old enough to let anybody kick MY azz. "