Why I carry

[turbo_vanner]

A few of those are on my list to check out, but thanks for the info, filled in a few holes for sure.

 

[rick benjamin]

Show of hands, Who knows the law?
I took a class from Andrew Branca, Law of Self Defense.
"YOU CARRY A GUN SO YOU'RE HARD TO KILL.
KNOW THE LAW SO YOU'RE HARD TO CONVICT
At Threat Dynamics in Tualatin, OR., Sept 9, 2017

 

[CoastRange57]

it was a horrible situation to be in for sure, and luckily the person with the gun had the training to use if effectively.

I would most certainly want a gun if I had no other choice, and the options were die or try. I just dont think the odds of me winding up in a situation like that warrant the hassles of concealment. Again, only for me, and only for the time being.

ON April 14, 2014 I got up like any other day. Shower, shorts and long tail shirt, 9mm with a spare mag, pepper spray. Went to the job like any other day. At the end of the day, my wife who is the boss, spots a man walking across the parking lot with a 1911 with a home made suppressor on it. Yells at me, I lock the doors down and this rat bastard starts walking towards this locked glass door. I pull my 9mm (which he saw me do) step behind a concrete pillar and try to get the best angle to shoot through the glass. He stops, looks at me and turns to go to the neighboring business and rob them and shoot the place up when the guy fought back.

My training kicked in. I do Threat Dynamics several times a year, my boys and I do if for fun and shooting range at our place is a twice a month thing. I am have law enforcement level tactical training,and a lot of military hand me down scenarios from my boys. I can hold my own for a 59 year old gimp.

The point is, I never thought for a minute that morning and through out the day that day, that I was going to be called upon to make a lethal force decision in less than 15 seconds at the end of that day.

What are the odds of that happening ?? None of us can predict that. My actions were reviewed on video by law enforcement and found to be completely justified and in doing so possibly saved my own life and those of 8 other people in that building at the time. I was pretty damn glad that I train a lot and shoot a lot. Training in the head game is just as important as gun handling and tactical moves.

When my boys went to Iraq and Afghanistan, I told them I don't care what you have to do, do whatever it takes to come home to us, pile those ragheads a telephone pole high if you have to, just come home. The Marines made some pretty damn good soldiers out of them and they taught me that survival ethos as much as they could with out going through the actual training with them.

Be armed, be observant, be vigilant, be aggressive, take the fight to the bad guys with overwhelming violence and kill them. Cower in a dugout with others waiting for an aggressor to come in there ?? I don't fing think so.

 

[bbbass]

I personally mentioned lack of training as a reason I dont carry, because I don't own a handgun, and am not very good with one. That will change soon enough, with a big box of ammo and some paper targets.

Also, I have no idea how I would react under fire. This probably wouldn't concern me nearly as much if I had a pistol I was comfortable with though.

Mr. turbo, I hope you didn't think I was putting you down... not my intention at all. It is just that your comment triggered a memory of all the times we are told that we can't own a handgun to defend ourselves unless we are as highly trained as LEOs. Those comments, some coming from the PD, I personally think are intended to dissuade people from owning/keeping firearms for self defense. How many times do we hear that if we have a gun in the home we are xx% more likely to be shot with it?

That aside, I bet if you have any experience with a handgun, you would do just fine and are selling yourself short. You see, although these situations are no doubt highly stressful, they typically happen at close range, under 10feet. All you need is intention to win or not die so that you don't "spray and pray". The fastest old west gunfighter is not the one that won, it was the person that shot for effect that won. Check it out. Massad Ayoob can't be all wrong.

You need practice. If you are ever out this way, let me know... I'll shoot with ya.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I had a situation several years ago, One where I could have drawn, but chose not to. I found the situation was VERY bad on several levels, and the choice to not draw and shoot was ultimately the correct one. One thing that I did, and the detectives were very impressed with, was to get down on one knee and keep an eye on the threat while positioning my self to unholster and draw unseen, when asked why I did that, My answer surprised every one involved, I had taken that position so that IF a shot was unavoidable in such a crowded situation, I would be shooting up wards, so that my misses would end up in the ceiling and not a bystander. I also had the choice to move closer to the threat, or to back away as the situation unfolded. THIS IS WHY training IS important, How many folks would have thought instinctively to take up such a position? How many folks actually think about where all those bullets are going when the fight is on? Simply owning a gun and choosing to carry isn't enough, Not in today's world of endless legal challenges and harassment for self defense!!!

 

[Alexx1401]

Why I carry: Because the skies clouded up and a loud voice said "Walk softly and carry a big stick" and I thought he said "Sig".

Seriously, I grew up next to the tracks where hobos and other vagrants would come in and cause problems. Some friends of my folks got kidnapped out of their home just a block away, tied up and driven in the trunk of their car to Arizona and never returned. A friend got knifed in the back while waiting in line for a burrito. Gangs of roaming thugs in my neighborhood (home of Mike Tyson). Kids that used to beat me up for my lunch money. The world is a dangerous place, I'm not volunteering to go bye-bye.

When people mention the need for training, I am slightly baffled. I have been shooting since I was 16. My wife grew up in a rural area where they always had firearms around. What is this lack of ability to shoot? I firmly believe that the demand for specific training of civilian defenders is something that has been jinned up. Get a handgun, some rounds, and a paper target. If you can put bullets on paper, and handle your weapon safely, you are good to go. I have the advantage of being more specifically trained during IDPA shoots. That just means I can handle multiple supposed bad guys while shooting under stress. My wife has never had formal training, but don't mess with her because she is mean and will shoot yer thingie off. Point being, most times the weapon does not even need to be fired... the mere display of a weapon is often enough. However, in the case of a determined attacker, wouldn't just being an average shot be enough "training" to at least make the attempt to put a stop to the proceedings? Just remember to make sure of the background, ie no bystanders in the direction you need to shoot, but that is basic safety.

I too grew up with guns. Was shooting before I started school. I have all my adult life though seen many who had never shot until they buy the first gun. Sadly I have also seen many over the years that finally buy a gun and ammo and do not even try it. I have lost track of the people I have known who have had a gun in a drawer for some time and never tried it. Many seen to have watched too much TV. Think you just fire the gun and the bullets go where you wish them to go. Even shooters who do shoot VERY often can't shoot anywhere near what they talk they can. Hear them talk about sights, lack of need of them and such. Then get to range with them and they can't hit the paper.

 

[Alexx1401]

I personally mentioned lack of training as a reason I dont carry, because I don't own a handgun, and am not very good with one. That will change soon enough, with a big box of ammo and some paper targets.

Great with a rifle, but cant lug that around town.

Also, I have no idea how I would react under fire. This probably wouldn't concern me nearly as much if I had a pistol I was comfortable with though.

GOOD on you that you want to. Get some ammo and get out and have some fun learning how your pistol works. Should be a lot of fun!

 

[Ura-Ki]

Surprisingly, pistol shooting is a lot harder then most people think it is, I sucked at it when first starting out, and had to continue training/practicing constantly to be even close to what I consider good enough! I have spent literally 29 years shooting almost daily to get and maintain those standards, and any time I don't shoot for a while, I find my self needing more work just to get to where I was! Doesn't help getting older fatter, and slower ether! LOL

 

[Alexx1401]

Surprisingly, pistol shooting is a lot harder then most people think it is, I sucked at it when first starting out, and had to continue training/practicing constantly to be even close to what I consider good enough! I have spent literally 29 years shooting almost daily to get and maintain those standards, and any time I don't shoot for a while, I find my self needing more work just to get to where I was! Doesn't help getting older fatter, and slower ether! LOL

Yep I got the older and fatter thing going on good here.
One of the best things I did for Wife and I both was finally buy a membership at the range. I really missed moving away from a place where to shoot was a 5 minute drive. I was finding myself not shooting nearly enough here. I would be constantly making excuses and way too much time would go by. Then when I went I always felt like I needed to try to take everything. Often damn bags almost too heavy to carry. Finally bought a year pass. As soon as I did I knew I should have years ago. We go a lot now. Often just to try out one gun, in and out. Wife goes a lot when I'm at work or sleeping by herself. It's been great for both of us.

 

[Alexx1401]

I had a situation several years ago, One where I could have drawn, but chose not to. I found the situation was VERY bad on several levels, and the choice to not draw and shoot was ultimately the correct one. One thing that I did, and the detectives were very impressed with, was to get down on one knee and keep an eye on the threat while positioning my self to unholster and draw unseen, when asked why I did that, My answer surprised every one involved, I had taken that position so that IF a shot was unavoidable in such a crowded situation, I would be shooting up wards, so that my misses would end up in the ceiling and not a bystander. I also had the choice to move closer to the threat, or to back away as the situation unfolded. THIS IS WHY training IS important, How many folks would have thought instinctively to take up such a position? How many folks actually think about where all those bullets are going when the fight is on? Simply owning a gun and choosing to carry isn't enough, Not in today's world of endless legal challenges and harassment for self defense!!!

YES, YES, and yes. I way too often hear people say they would "take care of" this situation or that. Many really have no idea what it's like to get into a gun fight in public. Especially when you shoot with them and they can't stay on paper. You ask them where do you think all those misses are going to end up? They often don't want to hear it.

 

[jrd541280]

Great thoughts group.
One thing I wonder about though, if shtf, you retreat to a rifle and come to the defense of others in a public or worse yet "gun free zone" how would the first cop on the scene know that YOU are a good guy with a gun???

 

[turbo_vanner]

I have an ar9, a 10 under construction, and 15 that are all built from either an 80% or a solid billet.... I like the platform, and CAD files are everywhere, but I have yet to get a handgun. Still young and just starting my collection now that I can afford it.

The 80% Glock copys look interesting, mainly in that I can build more of it myself, and I could share mags with my ar9, but if I'm going to carry something in public with the intent to use it if necessary, I want it to feel like a glove, and to operate it like second nature. That kind of familiarity just takes time and practice.

 

[Camelfilter]

Great thoughts group.
One thing I wonder about though, if shtf, you retreat to a rifle and come to the defense of others in a public or worse yet "gun free zone" how would the first cop on the scene know that YOU are a good guy with a gun???

Wouldn't.

Your life expectancy would be significantly low.

 

[Alexx1401]

Great thoughts group.
One thing I wonder about though, if shtf, you retreat to a rifle and come to the defense of others in a public or worse yet "gun free zone" how would the first cop on the scene know that YOU are a good guy with a gun???

It would almost always be a VERY poor choice to retrieve a gun and run back to an active shooter situation. The only way I can see myself doing that is if a family member was trapped inside. The LEO's who show up will shoot you if they see you going across the parking lot with a gun. If you get back inside people inside may not know who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. If this happens at work and I can get out, I'm sorry for the ones inside but I'm not grabbing a rifle and try to go after the shooter.

 

[jrd541280]

My point exactly

 

[jrd541280]

You can though, run to a dugout, collect as many innocents as you can, and then if the bastard comes after you, pull your shield and neutralize the threat. To me, that's about as far as we as citizens can go. Just me.

 

[TM-Salem]

I had a situation several years ago, One where I could have drawn, but chose not to. I found the situation was VERY bad on several levels, and the choice to not draw and shoot was ultimately the correct one. One thing that I did, and the detectives were very impressed with, was to get down on one knee and keep an eye on the threat while positioning my self to unholster and draw unseen, when asked why I did that, My answer surprised every one involved, I had taken that position so that IF a shot was unavoidable in such a crowded situation, I would be shooting up wards, so that my misses would end up in the ceiling and not a bystander. I also had the choice to move closer to the threat, or to back away as the situation unfolded. THIS IS WHY training IS important, How many folks would have thought instinctively to take up such a position? How many folks actually think about where all those bullets are going when the fight is on? Simply owning a gun and choosing to carry isn't enough, Not in today's world of endless legal challenges and harassment for self defense!!!

This is my way of dealing with crowded places if I had to shoot as well. I know if I miss the bullet will come down somewhere but at least I wouldn't hit an innocent behind someone I was trying to shoot. Good for you and your fast thinking.

 

[etrain16]

I had a situation several years ago, One where I could have drawn, but chose not to. I found the situation was VERY bad on several levels, and the choice to not draw and shoot was ultimately the correct one. One thing that I did, and the detectives were very impressed with, was to get down on one knee and keep an eye on the threat while positioning my self to unholster and draw unseen, when asked why I did that, My answer surprised every one involved, I had taken that position so that IF a shot was unavoidable in such a crowded situation, I would be shooting up wards, so that my misses would end up in the ceiling and not a bystander. I also had the choice to move closer to the threat, or to back away as the situation unfolded. THIS IS WHY training IS important, How many folks would have thought instinctively to take up such a position? How many folks actually think about where all those bullets are going when the fight is on? Simply owning a gun and choosing to carry isn't enough, Not in today's world of endless legal challenges and harassment for self defense!!!

Surprisingly, pistol shooting is a lot harder then most people think it is, I sucked at it when first starting out, and had to continue training/practicing constantly to be even close to what I consider good enough! I have spent literally 29 years shooting almost daily to get and maintain those standards, and any time I don't shoot for a while, I find my self needing more work just to get to where I was! Doesn't help getting older fatter, and slower ether! LOL

Well stated. You make some great points about why training, not just practice, is so important. Fact is that training, with a well qualified instructor, will force you to think about scenarios you wouldn't normally consider. It also allows you to drill in different ways than you may do in your personal training.

I have taken several defensive pistol courses. At one, we were put through a real life scenario, something you may really encounter. It was quite realistic and was meant to give a taste of what it's like to make a decision on the fly, and what the consequences may be if you make a poor decision. I went through that scenario and learned, by doing so, that I made a poor decision, one that could have put me in a very dangerous, possibly deadly situation. In the midst of the training, I got a bit of tunnel vision, thinking I could only take one particular way out. But that was the point of the training, there were other options, and I failed to see them or take them.

Without proper training, you may get good at hitting paper, but are you good at making proper decisions? Are you training in alternatives to shooting? Are you training to stay out of a situation where you need to draw in the first place? Also, are you training to move while shooting? Drawing and reholstering? Shooting from behind cover? Practicing failure drills and tactical reloads? Is there another set of eyes watching you shoot and calling out errors/mistakes? If so, are they qualified to assess those things? Assuming you know enough about these things is not the best way to proceed. Others have far more insight and can share that with you.

As for me, if I were run through that same scenario again, I would handle it very differently. That training may even save my life someday. I'm thankful for having had the opportunity, and looking forward to the next opportunity to learn even more.

 

[CoastRange57]

Without proper training, you may get good at hitting paper, but are you good at making proper decisions? Are you training in alternatives to shooting? Are you training to stay out of a situation where you need to draw in the first place? Also, are you training to move while shooting? Drawing and reholstering? Shooting from behind cover? Practicing failure drills and tactical reloads? Assuming you know enough about these things is not the best way to proceed. Others have far more insight and can share that with you.

That training may even save my life someday. I'm thankful for having had the opportunity, and looking forward to the next opportunity to learn even more.

This sums it all up very well. Especially the decisions and alternatives. If everyone who conceal carries had this level of interest and desire, the world would be a much safer place. I love training, and especially as I adapt it to my age requirements. My boys and I constantly challenge each other with " What if" scenarios. We argue and hash it out. Better to make the mistakes over a beer than in the fight. Lay out a scenario and then start throwing unbelievable variables into it to see how we would react. We did this in the fire service for fire ground command decisions. Just when you think you have it all under control, lay the most outlandish thing you can think might happen. Because someday it will.

The one you did not mention, and I know you have worked on it was off hand shooting and one handed reloads. The boys laid that one on me a while back. We were doing a move from cover to cover shoot, and they called out that I had just took one in the right shoulder and it was out of commission. That was not a good round after that. There are a ton of others also.

 

[bbbass]

[QUOTE="Alexx1401, post: 1702345, member: 44221" Hear them talk about sights, lack of need of them and such. Then get to range with them and they can't hit the paper.[/QUOTE]

This is a topic for a separate subject, but come to the range with me and I will show you that I don't need sights at 3', I don't need sights at 3yds, I don't need sights at 7yds. At distances beyond those, you bet I do. I say this after 20yrs of practical shooting during USPSA and IDPA competitions. Might not work for everybody tho.