Least favorite gun

[Alexx1401]

Gotcha.
Yeah, that must've been it. I thought I read something distinctly about the magazines, but you guys seem to have a better grasp on this than I do.
Odd, seeing how its based on the 1911. No pun intended, but that's a pretty bullet-proof design.
...I guess it shows the pitfalls of redesigning a single stack gun into a double stack one.


Dean

Even the GREAT (to me) 1911 design was infamous for leaving a LOT of people with a bad taste in their mouth a while back. Before the net a few people tried to jump on the at that time new "thing" of wanting a 1911. Then you had pretty much Colt, or Mil surplus. A few people started offering the "clones", and often cheaper. AMT was one who came out with one in stainless and cheaper. Problem was Quality control. This was before automated machinery was as good as it is now. Crank out 1911 parts and have someone who knows little start slapping them together and what you get in often not great. Many saw these, saw the price and ran out and bought one. Often they did not work well. This then would lead to the watering hole experts saying the "1911 was crap, always has been crap, my Daddy said in the war they did not work", and blah blah blah. After that many took a good while to learn the problem was not the 1911 it was who put it together. It also did not help that at that time the contractors who made 1911 parts dumped a TON of them on the market as surplus. You could buy the parts to make one VERY cheap. Everything except the frame. So up popped a couple places to offer frames cheap so the kitchen table guy could "build a 1911" on the cheap. Many of these ended up being down right dangerous and of course then sold at shows and such to some unsuspecting poor guy. Many of the people who ended up with one of these took a long time to be convinced the entire line of 1911's was not like the bad one they got burned with. Don't get me started on what Colt then did when for a while they got in trouble and tried to cut corners on QC for a while and cranked out some crap. People seem to seldom learn from past mistakes.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

You would be very confused if you own one. The ammo in the clip just sits there until you remove the clip, push a round out of it, flip open the barrel, remove the spent casing, insert the new round, snap the barrel shut, if your not dead already, you can then put the clip back into the gun. Hard to believe until you see one.

user error. You can either use the slide or manually load it with a 7th round...

Own one and have shot it with no issue. I have shot 100s of rounds through mine semi-auto

 

[Alexx1401]

No one is running for cover. The Beretta model 21A bobcat is the dumbest gun ever made. Amazingly these sell for $300 on gun broker. They are also listed as "semi-automatic" by some sellers but are not. You can have it for $250 if you pay the FFL.

I at first thought you were making a joke about it jamming. Now it looks like you are saying you really do not know it's an auto??? They sell for that because they are "normally" a great little pistol. The .32 and .25 versions were a little easier to make work since the rounds were better suited to an auto. The .22 LR was always a little harder to get to work in mass manufactured pistols. If they "all" did not work no one would be paying that price for them though. If yours really will not feed it may well be a very simple fix to get it humming along. Wife has one in .32 and loves it. Has a few times looked hard at one of the .22's to use for cheap practice. Price is the only reason she has not walked out of a shop with one yet. When I have been with her looking I was always encouraging her to go ahead and buy one if she wanted. No fear from me that it would either work or I could make it work.

 

[KKG]

The Detonics .45 Associates was another one of the 1911A1 Clone producers, Except they started by Building a Chopped and Channeled version. Then realizing they had lots and lots of Parts laying around that could be used to make money(frequently the real motivation) they began the Full Sized Guns. They were actually One of the best but too pricey. Detonics has been brought back to life a couple of times but by the end of the first incarnation their QC had begun to slip and it only got worse when they moved to a land of a cheaper work force.

 

[Alexx1401]

The Detonics .45 Associates was another one of the 1911A1 Clone producers, Except they started by Building a Chopped and Channeled version. Then realizing they had lots and lots of Parts laying around that could be used to make money(frequently the real motivation) they began the Full Sized Guns. They were actually One of the best but too pricey. Detonics has been brought back to life a couple of times but by the end of the first incarnation their QC had begun to slip and it only got worse when they moved to a land of a cheaper work force.

That one was a real bummer to me. I have been a 1911 fanboy since a child. When I fist saw one of these I was in love, until I bought the first one. It would work for a while, then now and then although rare it would hang up with normal factory ammo. When it did this with re loads I could live with it thinking I don't carry them. Every time it did it with factory I kept thinking what if this was the one time I needed it? No matter what I did It was never 100%. Finally reluctantly sold it. Soon bought another, same damn thing. I finally gave up after buying a Star PD. Slightly bigger but lighter. It did not help that I paid like 1/3 the price for the Star and that damn thing just worked. Often miss it. Only sold it since started to wonder how long till something breaks that can't easily be replaced.

 

[Pete F]

AMT 1911s were sometimes finicky. Many of the reported problems were caused by people not reading the instructions. I have an AMT Hardballer that used to be my Dad's. He was constantly having jamming and ejection problems. The first problem was that it was copied from the Colt Gold Cup - would seldom run HPs without some feedramp/magazine work. It, like the Gold Cup, were designed to run ball ammo. The second was the soft stainless. It specifically said to use grease on the slide, not oil. My Dad used oil and was always having galling problems, which led to other issues. When I got it from him, I polished the ramp and upper front chamber with mag wheel polish, and used a stone to remove the galling marks and smooth out the slide rails. It now feeds most HPs, no more feeding or extraction problems and no more galling. Using Wilson Combat magazines exclusively. I think that many of the "problems" with the AMT Hardballer were user caused or easily remedied. Replacing the extractor also helped on many.
I always wanted one of the AMT .380 Backups, but won't buy someone else's problem. A lot of people loved their Backups.

 

[Oathkeeper1775]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M247_Sergeant_York



Biggest hunk of junk; and my least favorite gun....

 

[DeanMk]

I noticed an earlier discussion on the Backup .45.
There were some comments about the trigger.
It's always been my understanding that the mile long, 1 ton trigger pull was purposely done, to act as a pseudo safety by AMT.
It was a slick sided gun, in a time when that was the hip, cool, new thing for pocket auto's to have AND it was .45 acp, which just flat didn't exist in pocket autos, with exception to the Semmerling (which actually wasn't an auto, it just looked like one).
They needed some kind of safety that effected the trigger, thus, a heavy spring and a long travel.
As for Detonics, they were an explosives company that was located somewhere out east. Redmond, Sedro Wooley, something like that. They moved outta state years ago (in fact, I was curious about where they used to be, so I looked them up and they don't even acknowledge ever being in Washington State....but they were).
ALEXX1401 - Re: 1911 clones - Exactly! The whole argument about the "crappy 1911" actually started with Vietnam era soldiers who were using the SAME .45's their fathers used in WWII! They were worn out and were in dire need of replacement, which eventually, they were.


Dean

 

[DeanMk]

...and for those of you out there asking, What's a Semmerling?....

 

[aksu747]

For me my worst gun would be a Mosin Nagant,biggest waste of $249.99 ever,didn't help that it was my first gun purchase and that I overpaid at Big 5. I really should have researched that purchase better when I was 18,but I really wanted my first gun and couldn't wait after getting my first paycheck.

Glad I don't have that pos anymore,had a long barrel but the bore was in such poor condition that acceptable groups past 25 yards were not doable,I think the sights were also slightly off as well. First and last Mosin for me,now the only mil-surp bolters I look at are Swiss K31's and Enfield SMLE's.

 

[KKG]

The Original Detonics .45 Associates Guns were built in Bellevue while the Sales staff were located in the Seattle Tower Building. The company was a Limited Partnership which at the time were only legal in 7 States. Mike Mays was an Electrical/Chemical Engineer who had developed a Blasting Cap that you could hold in your hand while it was set off. It wouldn't damage your hand but would make explosives go BANG. Sid Woodcock had developed the the gun which included a 6 round Magazine that the follower stuck out of the bottom when it was full so you could tell, by feel, that it was loaded. The Slide Stop was also unique to the Detonics as was the Self-Contained Recoil Mechanism and the Bushingless or Coned Barrel. All of these design changes came from Sid. Mike Mays had the money but Sid Woodcock had the brains.

It could even be said, thanks to the Limited Partnership, that Mays got the Gold while Sid got the Shaft.

 

[Alexx1401]

I noticed an earlier discussion on the Backup .45.
There were some comments about the trigger.
It's always been my understanding that the mile long, 1 ton trigger pull was purposely done, to act as a pseudo safety by AMT.
It was a slick sided gun, in a time when that was the hip, cool, new thing for pocket auto's to have AND it was .45 acp, which just flat didn't exist in pocket autos, with exception to the Semmerling (which actually wasn't an auto, it just looked like one).
They needed some kind of safety that effected the trigger, thus, a heavy spring and a long travel.
As for Detonics, they were an explosives company that was located somewhere out east. Redmond, Sedro Wooley, something like that. They moved outta state years ago (in fact, I was curious about where they used to be, so I looked them up and they don't even acknowledge ever being in Washington State....but they were).
ALEXX1401 - Re: 1911 clones - Exactly! The whole argument about the "crappy 1911" actually started with Vietnam era soldiers who were using the SAME .45's their fathers used in WWII! They were worn out and were in dire need of replacement, which eventually, they were.


Dean

A lot of the confusion here about the AMT Backup is they made a couple different guns with the same name. I put a picture here of the one I had a couple of that had that horrendous trigger. I thought my first one had something wrong with it. Soon found that was just how they were made. Many who shot mine would at first think they had the safety on as squeezing trigger was not making it fire. Then later AMT made a DAO pistol also called the backup. Was supposed to be a better design. It was in that it was at least something safer to carry with one in the pipe. The originals like I had were not really something it was wise to carry this way so it was really a 2 hand job to get one in action. That on top of the way I described the take down made them fairly short lived. I VERY rarely see one of these any more on the market but there is of course some for sale. As for the 1911 I was hearing Vet's bad mouth the pistol before we started sending guys to SE Asia even. Vets who were in after WWII often got to try them in training and they were often pistols that had been redone by people who had no idea what they were doing and or did not care as the men were never going to actually use them. The first one I shot was a Mil Surp bought dirt cheap even in those days. Guy who owned it said a lot of Vets seemed shocked it worked. It made me fall in love with the design. When places like AMT got started offering these many of course did work fine. There was just wayyyyy too many that were put together by guys who did not know what they were doing and they did not work. They could of course be fixed and made to work. I had a few cross my hands I got a great deal on this way. Someone would get disgusted with it and sell it at a show. It was normally easy to get it working great if you knew how. Had a buddy that was a wiz at these and we would split the money made. It left a LOT of people to repeat the line that the entire line was junk though. It's why it took a long time before you started to see what you see today. Many don't realize it's a fairly new thing for so many big names to be marketing a 1911. Now it seems all of them make one

 

[Alexx1401]

...and for those of you out there asking, What's a Semmerling?....

Had one of those for a while that I bought instead of a Seecamp . I had LONG wanted a Seecamp. Problem then was the wait for one was years long. You would see them at every show for of course about double the price. Even back then though Larry had established a rep of "I have your money I could care less now" if you got a bad one from him. I was at a show and had made a windfall and had cash to spare. Looked hard at a Seecamp but was hesitating to spend that kind of cash on something that if it did not work was going to be just too damn bad for me. Guy had one of these that was in great shape and had wood grips made for it. Same cash and it went home with me. it was a VERY interesting design to say the least. I soon lost interest in carrying it due to the way it operated. When I sold it years later the guy had announced he was no longer going to make them and I made a good sum from someone who just had to have it. I suspect a lot of these were sold from person to person over the years and seldom actually carried.

 

[drstrangelove]

The gripe about the Beretta 21 type guns is based on the fact they don't have an ejector/extractor. They require recoil/backbkast to cycle the action thus flipping out the empty. A dud round will need to be picked from the barrel unless it flies out when popping up the barrel.

 

[orygun]

I noticed an earlier discussion on the Backup .45.

It was a slick sided gun, in a time when that was the hip, cool, new thing for pocket auto's to have AND it was .45 acp, which just flat didn't exist in pocket autos
ALEXX1401 - Re: 1911 clones - Exactly! The whole argument about the "crappy 1911" actually started with Vietnam era soldiers who were using the SAME .45's their fathers used in WWII! They were worn out and were in dire need of replacement, which eventually, they were.


Dean

You bet it was cool! It was super cool because it was a little 45 and like mentioned, the only one.
During the fanny pack days it was ok to carry, too.

The guys that are 5-10 years older than I am have stories from the 60s and 70s about what a piece of junk a 1911 is, although that's not what they call it. Everyone called it a Colt 45 Auto. They had all been shooting old, worn out Government Models. In fact, one of my best buddies tells me I'm full of manure when I tell him about shooting at 100 yards. Just flat says it's not possible to hit anything at 25 feet, let alone 100 yards because "those guns" won't do it.

What he doesn't know.

 

[Sgt Nambu]

A lot of the confusion here about the AMT Backup is they made a couple different guns with the same name. I put a picture here of the one I had a couple of that had that horrendous trigger. I thought my first one had something wrong with it. Soon found that was just how they were made. Many who shot mine would at first think they had the safety on as squeezing trigger was not making it fire. Then later AMT made a DAO pistol also called the backup. Was supposed to be a better design. It was in that it was at least something safer to carry with one in the pipe. The originals like I had were not really something it was wise to carry this way so it was really a 2 hand job to get one in action. That on top of the way I described the take down made them fairly short lived. I VERY rarely see one of these any more on the market but there is of course some for sale. As for the 1911 I was hearing Vet's bad mouth the pistol before we started sending guys to SE Asia even. Vets who were in after WWII often got to try them in training and they were often pistols that had been redone by people who had no idea what they were doing and or did not care as the men were never going to actually use them. The first one I shot was a Mil Surp bought dirt cheap even in those days. Guy who owned it said a lot of Vets seemed shocked it worked. It made me fall in love with the design. When places like AMT got started offering these many of course did work fine. There was just wayyyyy too many that were put together by guys who did not know what they were doing and they did not work. They could of course be fixed and made to work. I had a few cross my hands I got a great deal on this way. Someone would get disgusted with it and sell it at a show. It was normally easy to get it working great if you knew how. Had a buddy that was a wiz at these and we would split the money made. It left a LOT of people to repeat the line that the entire line was junk though. It's why it took a long time before you started to see what you see today. Many don't realize it's a fairly new thing for so many big names to be marketing a 1911. Now it seems all of them make one

View attachment 408251

I bought an AMT Backup about 30 years ago from a guy outside Shooters Service Center in N PDX. He had tried to sell it inside and John (Semm) wanted no part of it! I paid $150 for the POS. Except, it isn't a POS! It's never given me any kind of problem, for years it was my deep concealer. Now no one is ever going to mistake its action for a vintage High Standard Victor, but it has always gone pop!
I also had an AMT Goverment model .45. Now THAT was a POS! Wouldn't empty Wilson magazines that worked perfectly in everything else! I traded it, with disclosure, for an FN M-49 in .30-06.

 

[KKG]

One of the things I found with the AMT Guns was that they worked Best with AMT Magazines which frequently didn't work in anything but an AMT.

 

[Alexx1401]

I bought an AMT Backup about 30 years ago from a guy outside Shooters Service Center in N PDX. He had tried to sell it inside and John (Semm) wanted no part of it! I paid $150 for the POS. Except, it isn't a POS! It's never given me any kind of problem, for years it was my deep concealer. Now no one is ever going to mistake its action for a vintage High Standard Victor, but it has always gone pop!
I also had an AMT Goverment model .45. Now THAT was a POS! Wouldn't empty Wilson magazines that worked perfectly in everything else! I traded it, with disclosure, for an FN M-49 in .30-06.

The couple Backups I had like the pic worked fine for me as far as function. Nary a problem there. I even got fairly good with one after getting used to that damn trigger. It was in the day I was always looking for something I could pocket carry as just that, a backup to my main pistol. I ended up with trying (several) D/A pistols for this as I of course did not like the idea of carrying anything that I had to rack a round in to make operational. Even if it was just a backup and I was not willing to carry one of these with one in the pipe. Back when I sold the last one they were still an easy sell. Little stainless guns were still a "new thing" then and people loved the way these looked. It's one of the few guns sold over time that I have no regrets selling. Same with those 1911's they made. Every one I got from someone who was pissed off at it was an easy sell later at a show. People loved the way they looked. They (AMT) also made a long slide version that did not seem to really take off then. Those are probably a little harder to find now days. They did look nice but of course were also hit and miss as to whether one would work when you bought it. Same guys under a different name, OMC I think it was, made the Automag 44. Another interesting idea that never really took off. Something of a collector piece now days when you still see one.

 

[CLT65]

A friend of mine had an AMT Backup .45 for a while, 20 years ago. We tried and tried to get it to function right without jamming, finally gave up and he traded it off for a full size Auto Ordnance 1911 that was equally bad (brand new with a bad chamber).

After that experience I wouldn't touch anything AMT. Someone who knew what they were doing could probably have gotten it to work right, but I didn't know much back then and didn't have the internet to help!

 

[wired]

H&K VP70Z . 19lb trigger pull. nuff said.