The 2 CRS guys on trial by ATF were found guilty

[Dieselchessy]

Has anyone been able to complete said part(s) and actually produce an operational machine gun?

Assuming the answer is "no" then I'd say they are maybe guilty of false advertisement, maybe fraud of some type.

But selling "machine gun parts"? I don't see it.

And the one witness testimony was odd. Said they "heard automatic gunfire so pulled over and were given some keycard stuff the others said they couldn't get to work".
But they heard automatic gun fire??

The card seems like a marketing gimmick to me, nothing more.

 

[Yarome]

Has anyone been able to complete said part(s) and actually produce an operational machine gun?

Assuming the answer is "no" then I'd say they are maybe guilty of false advertisement, maybe fraud of some type.

But selling "machine gun parts"? I don't see it.

And the one witness testimony was odd. Said they "heard automatic gunfire so pulled over and were given some keycard stuff the others said they couldn't get to work".
But they heard automatic gun fire??

The card seems like a marketing gimmick to me, nothing more.

Without the court transcripts I don't think anyone knows, but you would think if someone had been successful they would be blowing it up all over the place and there would be some arrests... wouldn't you(?) From what I gathered on the witnesses, they were likely offered immunity to testify, but only to the fact that they purchased them and intended to use them to convert a semi-auto. An ommission that they were successful or... it never happened... I dunno.

I think it was curious though that the prosecutors wanted the jury to be instructed that the prosecutors did not bear any burden to prove that the key cards could actually convert a semi to full auto. The rumor that the alphabet themselves were unable to get them to function as advertised was also illuminating.

I'm with you though. False advertising on a gimmick to make some green from a fool born every minute... that certainly appears fairly factual.

As far as hearing auto fire. I wouldn't discount that, but that really doesn't prove it wasn't actually a registered and fully legit full auto they were hearing, does it(?) Demonstrate a full auto and claiming it was using the key card to make more bank(?) Certainly within the realm of possibilities... unless it can be proven otherwise.

 

[ColeInOregon]

Without the court transcripts I don't think anyone knows, but you would think if someone had been successful they would be blowing it up all over the place and there would be some arrests... wouldn't you(?) From what I gathered on the witnesses, they were likely offered immunity to testify, but only to the fact that they purchased them and intended to use them to convert a semi-auto. An ommission that they were successful or... it never happened... I dunno.

I think it was curious though that the prosecutors wanted the jury to be instructed that the prosecutors did not bear any burden to prove that the key cards could actually convert a semi to full auto. The rumor that the alphabet themselves were unable to get them to function as advertised was also illuminating.

I'm with you though. False advertising on a gimmick to make some green from a fool born every minute... that certainly appears fairly factual.

As far as hearing auto fire. I wouldn't discount that, but that really doesn't prove it wasn't actually a registered and fully legit full auto they were hearing, does it(?) Demonstrate a full auto and claiming it was using the key card to make more bank(?) Certainly within the realm of possibilities... unless it can be proven otherwise.

"The ATF examined the Auto Key Cards and a firearms enforcement officer was able to remove the pieces of a lightning link from an Auto Key Card using a common Dremel rotary tool in about 40 minutes. When the firearms enforcement officer placed the two pieces of the lightning link into an AR-15 type firearm, it converted the semi-automatic firearm to be fully automatic. "

Federal Jury Convicts Two Men For Conspiring To Transfer Unregistered Machinegun Conversion Devices Disguised As “Pen Holders”

Jacksonville, Florida – United States Attorney Roger B. Handberg announces that a federal jury today found Kristopher Justinboyer Ervin (43, Orange Park) and Matthew Raymond Hoover (39, Wisconsin) guilty of conspiring to transfer unregistered machinegun conversion devices that they referred to...

www.justice.gov

 

[Dieselchessy]

Without the court transcripts I don't think anyone knows, but you would think if someone had been successful they would be blowing it up all over the place and there would be some arrests... wouldn't you(?) From what I gathered on the witnesses, they were likely offered immunity to testify, but only to the fact that they purchased them and intended to use them to convert a semi-auto. An ommission that they were successful or... it never happened... I dunno.

I think it was curious though that the prosecutors wanted the jury to be instructed that the prosecutors did not bear any burden to prove that the key cards could actually convert a semi to full auto. The rumor that the alphabet themselves were unable to get them to function as advertised was also illuminating.

I'm with you though. False advertising on a gimmick to make some green from a fool born every minute... that certainly appears fairly factual.

As far as hearing auto fire. I wouldn't discount that, but that really doesn't prove it wasn't actually a registered and fully legit full auto they were hearing, does it(?) Demonstrate a full auto and claiming it was using the key card to make more bank(?) Certainly within the realm of possibilities... unless it can be proven otherwise.

I wasnt considering the "automatic gunfire" as proof of anything. Could have been a bumpstock or such. I just thought it odd. I don't recall ever thinking to pull over and investigate gunfire. Who does that?

 

[Dieselchessy]

"The ATF examined the Auto Key Cards and a firearms enforcement officer was able to remove the pieces of a lightning link from an Auto Key Card using a common Dremel rotary tool in about 40 minutes. When the firearms enforcement officer placed the two pieces of the lightning link into an AR-15 type firearm, it converted the semi-automatic firearm to be fully automatic. "

Federal Jury Convicts Two Men For Conspiring To Transfer Unregistered Machinegun Conversion Devices Disguised As “Pen Holders”

Jacksonville, Florida – United States Attorney Roger B. Handberg announces that a federal jury today found Kristopher Justinboyer Ervin (43, Orange Park) and Matthew Raymond Hoover (39, Wisconsin) guilty of conspiring to transfer unregistered machinegun conversion devices that they referred to...

www.justice.gov

That press release seems to differ a fair bit from this article claiming to be giving a recap of court proceedings.

I agree, one would expect the District Attorneys office to be a better source.

Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2023/04/ju...uilty-in-the-autokey-card-case/#ixzz7zrXqnoJV
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook

When pressed, the ATF admitted they could only get one of the three Autokey Cards they possessed to work. They also admitted to jamming the Autokey Card into the firearm to create hammer follow.

 

[Yarome]

"The ATF examined the Auto Key Cards and a firearms enforcement officer was able to remove the pieces of a lightning link from an Auto Key Card using a common Dremel rotary tool in about 40 minutes. When the firearms enforcement officer placed the two pieces of the lightning link into an AR-15 type firearm, it converted the semi-automatic firearm to be fully automatic. "

Federal Jury Convicts Two Men For Conspiring To Transfer Unregistered Machinegun Conversion Devices Disguised As “Pen Holders”

Jacksonville, Florida – United States Attorney Roger B. Handberg announces that a federal jury today found Kristopher Justinboyer Ervin (43, Orange Park) and Matthew Raymond Hoover (39, Wisconsin) guilty of conspiring to transfer unregistered machinegun conversion devices that they referred to...

www.justice.gov

That's cool then. It's nice to know that it "could" work on certain bolt carrier styles and not just a full on scam.

That still doesn't really change the fact that they weren't actually mfg, selling or promoting actual parts... but "scam artist" to boot is certainly a bad look.

 

[Yarome]

That press release seems to differ a fair bit from this article claiming to be giving a recap of court proceedings.

I agree, one would expect the District Attorneys office to be a better source.

Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2023/04/ju...uilty-in-the-autokey-card-case/#ixzz7zrXqnoJV
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook

When pressed, the ATF admitted they could only get one of the three Autokey Cards they possessed to work. They also admitted to jamming the Autokey Card into the firearm to create hammer follow.

That's what I had been referencing earlier. The ammoland summary.

What can I say? I don't consider the prosecuting department nor the alphabet's statements as always factual nor reliable.

 

[ColeInOregon]

That press release seems to differ a fair bit from this article claiming to be giving a recap of court proceedings.

I agree, one would expect the District Attorneys office to be a better source.

Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2023/04/ju...uilty-in-the-autokey-card-case/#ixzz7zrXqnoJV
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution
Follow us: @Ammoland on Twitter | Ammoland on Facebook

When pressed, the ATF admitted they could only get one of the three Autokey Cards they possessed to work. They also admitted to jamming the Autokey Card into the firearm to create hammer follow.

Generally speaking, the Department of Justice is considered a more credible source than Ammoland.

 

[Yarome]

Generally speaking, the Department of Justice is considered a more credible source than Ammoland.

Yeah.... I dunno. Brandon's DOJ has a very clear agenda mandate and has been mixed up in foul after foul of flat out not doing their job, interferring with investigations, smear and disinformation campaigns that dont fit the narrative, etc.

They have no more credibility with me than say... any of the mainstream news outlets. They aren't beholden to fact checking or oversight the way they used to be, or should be, and have been pretty blatantly more agenda driven, IMHO.

 

[CamoDeafie]

When you have literal sites still showing how to make Glock Switches and auto sears and so forth; and lots of social media videos showing people of all types (generally criminals but...) shooting and mag-dumping their post-86 machine guns, just don't have a specific "big", mouthy YT personality Channel insulting the DOJ/ATF... and they go after the big mouthy YT creator who insulted them, over what is arguably a 1A case that may have some bearing on 2A and NFA items in question, with clear instructions to disregard whether the "parts" in question actually can be functional, reliably or not., and whose websites have been seized (where the 3d file sites aren't...) seems to me that it's a clear sign of prosecutorial bias... IMO.

 

[red442joe]

What you are ignoring is that a flat piece of metal is not a "part'. You're pretending any piece of metal that "can" be used to mfg a regulated part is already a "part".

Quite a slippery slope if it's accepted that that alphabet has the authority to regulate any and all raw materials that "may" be used to mfg a firearm. Not something I'm willing to allow them the authroity to do, but if you're happy with it... more power to you!

Some think a scale drawing showing where the third hole goes is a machine gun.
OH MY GAWD, IT HAS DIMENSIONS TOO!!!
They are wrong.

Joe

 

[ma96782]

Aloha, Mark

 

[Dieselchessy]

Aloha, Mark

Them folks repeated the same comment that Ammoland made that the ATF wasn't full successful at getting one of those things to work.

Odd that the US attorneys office makes it sound like the ATF drop one of these in the gun and presto an automatic weapon.

 

[L84Cabo]

I haven't watched Mark Smith's (4 Boxes) video yet, but if Mr. G's and G's video is accurate, this is pretty frightening...both that they prosecuted him and that they found a jury that would convict him. And especially when you consider that the machine gun laws are unconstitutional to begin with and especially when the nonsense was passed back in 1934.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I haven't watched Mark Smith's (4 Boxes) video yet, but if Mr. G's and G's video is accurate, this is pretty frightening...both that they prosecuted him and that they found a jury that would convict him. And especially when you consider that the machine gun laws are unconstitutional to begin with and especially when the nonsense was passed back in 1934.

The scary part is, the ATF was able to influence the judge and jury, and attempted to force the Judge to instruct the jury on what it could and could NOT consider in deciding the case! What's worse, that the ATF was unable to prove a crime actually occurred, and yet pushed for a conviction of a crime. And they twist the laws and definitions of what is and isn't a machine gun, or simple parts, it was like an 80% builders kit, and should also be covered by the 1st rights of free speech as well!

 

[Yarome]

Odd that the US attorneys office makes it sound like the ATF drop one of these in the gun and presto an automatic weapon.

I don't really find it all that odd. Afterall, they have a narrative to sell in order to get a sucessful prosecution... and the blue party line is always, "laws/truth don't matter as long as you are morally correct." And... they decide what's morally correct and what isn't.

No great shocker.

 

[Dieselchessy]

I searched and found the court documents, but didn't see transcripts of testimony.
In the US's evidence list they only seem to mention the evaluation of 2 or 3 cards. They look to have a video and photos. Reportedly the video is of some odd seconds of auto gunfire.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Welcome to the US Legal System show where the facts and truth don't matter, where points are pointless and no one pays attention! <again, no apologies to Whose Line is it Anyways

 

[Member 34319]

When you have literal sites still showing how to make Glock Switches and auto sears and so forth; and lots of social media videos showing people of all types (generally criminals but...) shooting and mag-dumping their post-86 machine guns, just don't have a specific "big", mouthy YT personality Channel insulting the DOJ/ATF... and they go after the big mouthy YT creator who insulted them, over what is arguably a 1A case that may have some bearing on 2A and NFA items in question, with clear instructions to disregard whether the "parts" in question actually can be functional, reliably or not., and whose websites have been seized (where the 3d file sites aren't...) seems to me that it's a clear sign of prosecutorial bias... IMO.

I'm still shocked every time a short pops up on YouTube of some young kid, likely serious criminal, dumps a mag out of his window in what looks residential.

Im not sure if it's because that young man is so free, he fully practices the truest meaning of the second amendment.

Or because the young man is openly broadcasting an illegal act, per a law that goes against the second amendment, and is likely involved in other criminal acts. Things like murder or assault with deadly weapon. Intent to harm. You name it.

And…

Thats why we have folks arguing for gun control…

Id bet some here would absolutely be terrified of those videos. I'm not sure why?

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Them folks repeated the same comment that Ammoland made that the ATF wasn't full successful at getting one of those things to work.

Odd that the US attorneys office makes it sound like the ATF drop one of these in the gun and presto an automatic weapon.

Ammoland? More like MakeStuffUpLand

Maybe the US Attorney's office made it sound that way because that is what happened, starting on page 18 is what you want to look at, and yeah, yeah, "bUt ThE aTf LiEs!"

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