No-Knock Warrants - My Greatest Fear as a Law-Abiding Gun Owner

[Dozer99]

Just do what China is doing. Cut the power, cut the water, weld all the doors and windows shut. They will knock back when they are ready to go quietly.

 

[Caveman Jim]

As news broke today of an innocent civilian being gunned down in MN during a no-knock warrant (article), I thought it timely to have a discussion here.

As a law abiding gun owner, this is probably one of my greatest fears. If someone enters my house unannounced in the middle of the night I will absolutely be grabbing my bedside firearm and enter into fight-or-flight mode. I also know if it's a SWAT team at my door, there is a very high likelihood that being in that situation may result in my death, at no fault to my own.

No-knock warrants seem like a terrible idea to me. I am sure there are several LEO that are members of this community, and I'd love to hear your thoughts here.

Does anyone know the laws surrounding no-knocks in WA/OR?

If you are on the government shi!t list and they want you bad enough they are not going to do a no knock raid at your home. They will target you once you leave home on your way to work or to the grocery store.
Think about it.

 

[patrikky]

It is wise to reinforce the outside entry doors into your house. That buys you some extra time to ascertain what's going on in case of forced entry.

 

[nwslopoke]

Don't like the idea. Unless life is at risk. Then you don't need one. Look at old episodes of Adam-12 where the bad guys tell the fuzz to get bent, but at 22 mins after the hour, bad guy makes a mistake and gets arrested anyway.

Point is, Unless life is at risk, what's the rush? Between bad information and swatting incidents added with the courts letting dirtbags go after the fact, it's not worth it.

 

[Z-PDX]

Don't like the idea. Unless life is at risk. Then you don't need one. Look at old episodes of Adam-12 were the bad guys tell the fuzz to get bent, but at 22 mins after the hour, bad guy makes a mistake and gets arrested anyway.

interesting to note:

jack webb, who produced both adam-12 and emergency strove for, and accomplished, amazing accuracy in both those shows.

it is still considered one of the only watchable cop shows by many in the community.

there was a time when every cop or medic was inspired by these guys.

props and gratitude. to mr. jack webb.

 

[po18guy]

As news broke today of an innocent civilian being gunned down in MN during a no-knock warrant (article), I thought it timely to have a discussion here.

A little premature, dontcha' think? Having seen the thug's pic, 5.7 in hand? Innocent is a legal term. There's no judge at a gunfight - only 1st and 2nd place.

Anyway, too much heat and not enough light, so time to move on.

 

[Boboclown]

A little premature, dontcha' think? Having seen the thug's pic, 5.7 in hand? Innocent is a legal term. There's no judge at a gunfight - only 1st and 2nd place.

Anyway, too much heat and not enough light, so time to move on.

The term thug aside, the attorney has mentioned that the 5.7 was legally owned by the individual who was shot.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I wonder if he had his boots on.

 

[Boboclown]

I'm not PC (and I've been banned enough on discord to know I'm definitely not) but it was someone they weren't even there for. He also legally owned the firearm. I suppose I must be a thug if I got shot, I legally own all my firearms. And FFS don't even pull the work boots question on me, I'm covered in mud and grease from work almost daily, and more than enough times I'm dealing with crap that can kill me if not everyone else.

Do we also forget Daniel Shaver? Didn't have a gun. Obeyed the police officer, and still got shot as he was crying and begging, and crawling. Was he a thug?

 

[Will_White]

Do you lose a lot of sleep worrying about it happening to you?

No but the the more existing while armed becomes a death sentence if you have contact with police it's something I think about more often.

 

[po18guy]

The term thug aside, the attorney has mentioned that the 5.7 was legally owned by the individual who was shot.

Fair enough. Totality of the circumstances. He was bunking, gun in hand, or came out with the gun in hand, at the home of (or hangout of) three wanted homicide suspects. One extremely poor life choice is all that many of us get.

And, we do not know about the prior homicide yet. It will all come out, but the lynch mob has already formed.

 

[Certaindeaf]

No but the the more existing while armed becomes a death sentence if you have contact with police it's something I think about more often.

Do you get twitchy and furtive when you think about the police?

 

[Boboclown]

Fair enough. Totality of the circumstances. He was bunking, gun in hand, or came out with the gun in hand, at the home of (or hangout of) three wanted homicide suspects. One extremely poor life choice is all that many of us get.

And, we do not know about the prior homicide yet. It will all come out, but the lynch mob has already formed.

Considering his lack of criminal history, I'm hesitant to side against him.

Its not like there isn't already a history of police doing wrong in the U.S. A recent one where even the mayor was in on it was some town in AL where they'd give out tickets for stuff that people didn't do. Non-residents traveling through got hit hard. Funny enough, when all this happened crime increased as some folks couldn't afford to pay the tickets or lawyers.

 

[salmon creek gary]

A little premature, dontcha' think? Having seen the thug's pic, 5.7 in hand? Innocent is a legal term. There's no judge at a gunfight - only 1st and 2nd place.

Anyway, too much heat and not enough light, so time to move on.

Hmm. It takes me more than four or five seconds to fully awaken from a sound sleep. Some folks may be quicker, some are even slower. Let's do a hypothetical walk-through of events, beginning with "innocent me" enjoying a good night's slumber.

Then GO! I am suddenly disturbed by unfamiliar and unexpected noises in the house. As five seconds elapse, I am both befuddled and struggling to comprehend why there's some loud, incoherent shouting going on. Yes, anyone who watched the video could judge the quality of that so-called "police" announcement . . . loud, rapid, and incomprehensible to anyone who didn't already know what was being shouted.

Back to the action with six seconds gone, I am still inadequately aware of what's going on, but already totally alarmed. Having good reason to fear the worst, I begin fumbling to locate my bedside pistol.

Maybe by the eight second point, I have my pistol in hand and now - freeze frame - that clip from the video could be a picture of "innocent me" about to get shot. At the nine second point, I will never have opportunity to comprehend the true situation. As the tenth second ticks by, "innocent me" will already be heading toward room temperature.

Realistically, could I ever be in that hypothetical situation? Yes, I think so, given the incidence of "wrong address, so sorry" police shootings, as well as those situations resolved with, "sorry but your address was "swatted". Will I lose any sleep over the chances? Nope, but a man would be a fool to deny the real possibilities. It would be just as foolish to think it's an imminent threat.

With that in mind, let's go beyond the hypothetical. Being reasonably innocent and not totally a fool, I keep fresh batteries installed in certain devices that will ensure that I'm awake way before any wee-hour knock - or a kick - on my door. Long enough before, in fact, that I'll be absolutely certain of whether I ought to rack the 12 gauge slide . . . or lay it down and shout, "Hey guys, come on in, I'll put the coffee on".

 

[Member 75076]

Legally speaking this is a good shoot. The officers don't have time to evaluate and see if he's going to pause and go "oh okay, you're the police so I won't shoot", or go "oh sh*t, it's the police" and start shooting. However, the optics are horrible and it doesn't look good and will further strain the already tense relationship between police and the public. Law enforcement in the Minneapolis area can't catch a break after Justine Diamond, Philando Castile, George Floyd, Dante Wright, etc.

 

[User1138]

A little premature, dontcha' think? Having seen the thug's pic, 5.7 in hand? Innocent is a legal term. There's no judge at a gunfight - only 1st and 2nd place.

Anyway, too much heat and not enough light, so time to move on.

That "thug" was part of our community of law abiding gun owners. He had a CCW permit and it was a legally obtained firearm (source: MN Gun Owners Caucus).

You are doing this community a disservice by blindly calling him a thug, and I'd encourage you to read up on the situation before spewing such rhetoric.

 

[Mono1]

They will target you once you leave home on your way to work or to the grocery store.

Didn't happen at Waco, tho' Jim. That was an Eric Holder Op BTW, if I am correct.

 

[Caveman Jim]

Didn't happen at Waco, tho' Jim. That was an Eric Holder Op BTW, if I am correct.

I'm talking about the regular Joe that hates government and makes it known, not a big time group like the Branch Dividian.

 

[sobo]

Didn't happen at Waco, tho' Jim. That was an Eric Holder Op BTW, if I am correct.

That was a Janet Reno op... The siege started a coupla weeks before she took office, but she was well into her role as USAG for the attack, bulldozing, and the resultant fires. That's all on her. How that woman kept her job, and continued to have a prosperous gub'mint career, will never cease to amaze me...
Oh, right, she's a Democrat...




Eric Holder was US Attorney for the District of Columbia at the time of the Branch Davidian fiasco. His meteoric rise to stardom and fame (read: Operation Fast and Furious) wouldn't come for many more years.

 

[No_Regerts]

That "thug" was part of our community of law abiding gun owners. He had a CCW permit and it was a legally owned firearm (source: MN Gun Owners Caucus).

You are doing this community a disservice by blindly calling him a thug, and I'd encourage you to read up on the situation before spewing such rhetoric.

None of this matters as it relates to whether the shooting was justified. "Objectively reasonable based on the totality of circumstances". If they followed the law and department policy, it will be those laws and policies that are scrutinized.