Alphabet no knock warrant shootout, agent and homeowner injured

[VinnieBoomBah]

Except we don't have anywhere near the totality of the circumstances.

But do we have enough for wild, unfounded conjecture?

 

[Yarome]

But do we have enough for wild, unfounded conjecture?

Well... ya know... most people can look at a 2X4 and recognize... "it looks like a 2X4", "It feels like a 2X4", "It smells like a 2X4"... and don't require being hit in the face with it before acknowledging, "Yup! That's a 2X4 all right!".

There's always gonna be one though that requires it.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Well... ya know... most people can look at a 2X4 and recognize... "it looks like a 2X4", "It feels like a 2X4", "It smells like a 2X4"... and don't require being hit in the face with it before acknowledging, "Yup! That's a 2X4 all right!".

There's always gonna be one though that requires it.

And some people can avoid Begging The Question* and oh the absolute horrors that even one person wants actual proof of something like the premeditated state sanctioned murder that saying it was an execution implies


*Correct usage, look it up

 

[Yarome]

And some people can avoid Begging The Question*

How long and how many threads ago has the grammer police been holding onto that one to throw in my face??

Pretty weak, but if it feeds your superiority complex and helps validate your existence I ain't gonna knock ya fer it,

*Correct usage, look it up

I'm not gunning for a Pulitzer and you obviously understood what I meant. As the old proverb goes... "あほに取り合うばか." (Look it up)

 

[Knobgoblin]

How long and how many threads ago has the grammer police been holding onto that one to throw in my face??

Pretty weak, but if it feeds your superiority complex and helps validate your existence I ain't gonna knock ya fer it,

I'm not gunning for a Pulitzer and you obviously understood what I meant. As the old proverb goes... "あほに取り合うばか." (Look it up)

Quick show of hands , who here gets annuity checks from any of the Clinton's foundations?

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

How long and how many threads ago has the grammer police been holding onto that one to throw in my face??

Pretty weak, but if it feeds your superiority complex and helps validate your existence I ain't gonna knock ya fer it,

I'm not gunning for a Pulitzer and you obviously understood what I meant. As the old proverb goes... "あほに取り合うばか." (Look it up)

Came up with it on the fly this morning, although it is one of my linguistic pet peeves.

It's right up there with people who rely on ad hominem attacks

But anyway, you argument Begs The Question because for it to be true, it has to "look like it 2 x 4/state sponsored execution" and it does not. It looks like the dozens or maybe even hundreds of no knock warrants that are carried out each year. Even the officers covering the ring cameras is not particularly unique. There are lots and lots of videos they can be found showing that happening each year as well.
The only thing unique about this one is who they were serving the warrant on

 

[Yarome]

Even the officers covering the ring cameras is not particularly unique. There are lots and lots of videos they can be found showing that happening each year as well.

I did state that I understand that they do it for officer safety, and I'm also aware that it is fairly standard practice. My point was that it is also kind of a catch 22 if you consider the perspective of the person on the other side of the door.

Simply going about your day and suddenly having your front door come under assault.. it will of course set off anyone's "threat radar". In that mindset, and knowing that it is also common for bad buys to attempt to conceal their identity, finding your camera blocked or disabled only lends to support the idea that you are under threat.

If he attempted to look at his ring camera or not, who knows, and it's really only one chain in the events, but it did have a higher likelihood than not of escalating a "fight" response. It would be a reasonable argument that if they had allowed the occupants to view who was actually at their door it may have resulted in a quick de-escalation on the occupants part.

I've been in that situation. Someone knocking heavily on my front door near midnight I approached it slightly annoyed but casually to find out who the heck was outside at that hour. As soon as I noticed someone was intentionally blinding out my camera with a flashlight, and having not the slightest inkling that any LEO might have any reason to be at my door, my hand went immediately to my pistol grip and I went full on into "defensive mode".

As soon as I demanded the person outside to lower their flashlight, step back from the door and identify themselves.... and could see it was 2 officers... I immediately went back into, "Heya! What can I do for ya?" mode.

Had they not complied, my handgun surely would have made it's way out of it's holster until I was certain no threat existed.


In my opinion, the onus is on LE to not escalate a situation beyond what is reasonably necessary than it is on a law abiding citizen to respond docilly when faced with an unknown threat within their own home.

 

[po18guy]

Except we don't have anywhere near the totality of the circumstances.

Even the totality of what has been released. Totally botched at a bare minimum.

 

[solv3nt]

Don't forget, LEO's have done no-knock warrants on the wrong house as well.

 

[thebigbaby]

Even the totality of what has been released. Totally botched at a bare minimum.

What is the totality that has been released?

 

[po18guy]

What is the totality that has been released?

That he was an airport manager with regular hours. That his job was not an armed position. That his travels and habits were known from surveillance. That he was investigated for alleged PAST crimes. That he possessed weapon(s) in his home. That weapons are not an easily destructible form of evidence - thus a call from work to his spouse to flush the guns would not work.

The ATF, with multiple warrants COULD HAVE simply contacted him at work, at the grocery store, while on foot to get his mail, ANY NUMBER of places FAR less dangerous to the manager, his family AND ATF employees. They could have contacted him when he was awake and had full awareness of his surroundings, and when he would have no reason to suspect a home invasion robbery. They COULD have arranged the entire thing using good judgment, prudence and established law enforcement policies.

But did not.

 

[Yarome]

That he was an airport manager with regular hours. That his job was not an armed position. That his travels and habits were known from surveillance. That he was investigated for alleged PAST crimes. That he possessed weapon(s) in his home. That weapons are not an easily destructible form of evidence - thus a call from work to his spouse to flush the guns would not work.

The ATF, with multiple warrants COULD HAVE simply contacted him at work, at the grocery store, while on foot to get his mail, ANY NUMBER of places FAR less dangerous to the manager, his family AND ATF employees. They could have contacted him when he was awake and had full awareness of his surroundings, and when he would have no reason to suspect a home invasion robbery. They COULD have arranged the entire thing using good judgment, prudence and established law enforcement policies.

But did not.

To include, he had no prior criminal history, none of the alleged crimes where of a violent nature nor against others, and there was no indication in the affidavit for a search warrant that he was considered violent, a threat to others or a flight risk.

He was also a 16 year resident of an upscale middle class neighborhood, held a full time prestigious, well paying job and under long term surveillance exhibited no unusual or nefarious associations or habits.

 

[lucusloc]

What is the totality that has been released?

The real question here is what reason did they have to execute a high risk warrant when all the released evidence we have indicates that was the worst possible way to execute this "investigation"?

The best possible answer they can have is "we wanted to play with our toys and intimidate a bastard." (And I submit that is indeed the absolute best justification they can have given the totality of what we know about things). The worst answer they can have is this was a premeditated execution with the warrant serving as cover.

Now ordinarily I would not give much credence to the worst case scenario, but the fact of the matter is this is the ATF and they have pulled that exact thing before.

 

[robertvarner]

No knock raids should be illegal. Complete infraction of your civil rights. Its a pretty normal response to fire upon somebody who just kicked your door in at 3 in the morning. But for whatever reason they keep doing it and saying "durrr we dont know why he shot at us! We only broke his door down!" Stupid is, as stupid does. I for one know Id be doing the same thing if this happened to me, police, home invader? I dont care. You are obviously not welcome in my home if you have to kick the door down and forcefully enter you've now made your intentions clear and your right to life is null and void.

Most federal agencies are not allowed to perform no-knock warrants, because of this reason.

There's a lot we don't know about this event, and likely never will get the true story from the FBI. Their bad reputation is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[thebigbaby]

That he was an airport manager with regular hours. That his job was not an armed position. That his travels and habits were known from surveillance. That he was investigated for alleged PAST crimes. That he possessed weapon(s) in his home. That weapons are not an easily destructible form of evidence - thus a call from work to his spouse to flush the guns would not work.

The ATF, with multiple warrants COULD HAVE simply contacted him at work, at the grocery store, while on foot to get his mail, ANY NUMBER of places FAR less dangerous to the manager, his family AND ATF employees. They could have contacted him when he was awake and had full awareness of his surroundings, and when he would have no reason to suspect a home invasion robbery. They COULD have arranged the entire thing using good judgment, prudence and established law enforcement policies.

But did not.

All good points, thank you. You're talking about the lead up to the search warrant. I hadn't thought about that. I was mainly thinking about the execution of the search warrant its-self.

 

[po18guy]

All good points, thank you. You're talking about the lead up to the search warrant. I hadn't thought about that. I was mainly thinking about the execution of the search warrant its-self.

If they pursued him in his car and he bailed and ran inside.... OK. Maybe.
Federal agencies take on a life and an authority of their own. Bloodshed is inevitable.

 

[Diamondback]

Seems to me they had MULTIPLE ways to take this guy peacefully and MULTIPLE ways to positively ID themselves--this was a deliberate premeditated murder plain and simple just like Vicky Weaver.

 

[MikeInOr]

I sleep better at night knowing that the ATF assassination squads are still alive and working diligently! It is a healthy sign of every totalitarian government throughout history.

Things work so much more efficiently when the ATF decides to take it upon themselves to accept the roles of Investigators, Prosecutors, Judge, Jury and Executioners.

Janet Reno would be proud!