City folks, buy a farm!

[The Heretic]

Even "scavenging" will get you mistaken for a looter - there is a very fine line there, and most people won't recognize it. They also probably won't recognize any right you claim to have to "scavenge" property that wasn't yours before SHTF and probably still isn't now.

For example. You come across my property. I am out retrieving my kids as they are walking from their house towards mine, to bring them back to a safer location.

You decide that my house is abandoned and therefore you have some kind of right to "scavenge" all my preps that I have worked hard to acquire over the years so that my family can live through SHTF. I ask my neighbor to keep an eye on my place until I return.

My neighbor sees you as you come out the door with your arms full of food and shoots you on the spot. I am probably going to be doing the happy dance when I get home for having such a good neighbor, and then I will be cussing your dead body for making me dig a hole to bury you.

I generally don't take property that isn't mine, even if the owner is dead - how do I know that his family won't come along later and need that stuff?

Ethical issues aside, it just isn't a good plan - too many ways to get shot, too many ways to be ethically wrong without even intending to be wrong.

 

[DuneHopper]

What we have to realize is maybe 80% of the populations thinks in a SHTF MRE's and a stock of firewood is all you need. There are only a small portion of people that have seen the animals most humans become. In Bosnia as an example people who stock piled and prepared were victims almost at once. Unless one has a small army defense of what one has get tricky quick.
Ive seen it first hand not pretty. Setting up a community takes trust built by years, I love ya guys here but I would have to think real real hard before I would trust people with my six.
Maybe I am just older, paranoid or both. But the more you show you have the more people will try and take it from you. I am pretty convinced in a very short time the USA we love will be dismantled, and if Hilary gets in civil war is a given.
I like the idea its a good one, but I know humans all too well and even if all is fine now, give it 3-6 months after a collapse and a struggle for supplies and dominance occurs in many humans. Not in other countries but right here at home. Building a compound on the other had good idea, with a high high price tag. I see some concerns for this, although as i said may be a good idea for some.

 

[PaulB47]

In Bosnia as an example people who stock piled and prepared were victims almost at once.

Yeah, looking conspicuously better off that the surrounding starving populations, is not a wise move.

Presumably you'd not be alone though; that's the whole point. There is your own group and there are other farms and other groups nearby, each depending on each other to a certain extent.

We are fortunate to have such rich land, even though some farmers are covering it with gravel so they can grow nursery stock for sale! It's amazing what people went through just to get here.

I suspect the big farms growing grass seed in the Willamette Valley will have to find something else to grow. A big question will be the supply of diesel. If there ain't much, the farmland will be able to absorb fairly large populations because farming will get a lot more manual. If there is enough, the tractors and harvesters will still run and the farmers won't want to see people walking down their roads...

If the sh*t hits the fan hard enough, all mortgages will disappear and possession will equal ownership. Yet another thing to consider.

 

[Brutus57]

Roaming bands of armed looters in country not familiar to them are going to be fun times for the local elk hunters. AKs and ARs won't fare well against 06s, 300 Win Mags, .308s, 7mm Mags, etc. 1st guy will be dead before anyone hears the shot. 2 local hunters could really put a damper on outlaws.
One might say the hunters won't know the BGs are coming? Drones are battery powered... What no wifi? Who isn't gong to shoot at a strange drone especially after SHTF? So yeah, good chance the locals will know BGs are in the neighborhood. Not to mention setting up booby traps along the paths of least resistance that are the likely routes the BGs will take.
Just 2 of my cents.

Brutus out

 

[mrblond]

I read somewhere a year or so ago that if you have 5k in the bank, you are in the top 10% of wealth in the US.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I read somewhere a year or so ago that if you have 5k in the bank, you are in the top 10% of wealth in the US.

And if you live under a bridge in the US you're more wealthy than 90% of the world. don't quote me on that though

 

[IronMonster]

The way I heard it phrased is if you make minimum wage in the US you are in the top 3% of the worlds wage earners.

 

[jluck]

The way I heard it phrased is if you make minimum wage in the US you are in the top 3% of the worlds wage earners.

But cost of living is never figured in. I realize this may have be a semi sarcastic post but true none the less.

 

[IronMonster]

I dont think when you make $2/day or less like better than half the worlds population you think about cost of living in the same sense we do.

 

[IronMonster]

http://money.cnn.com/2015/07/08/news/economy/global-low-income/

 

[The Heretic]

We are fortunate to have such rich land, even though some farmers are covering it with gravel so they can grow nursery stock for sale! It's amazing what people went through just to get here.

I suspect the big farms growing grass seed in the Willamette Valley will have to find something else to grow.

I have noticed this too and it isn't a new thing, but is gradually getting more prevalent; more and more farmland taken out of food production and put into producing either grass seed or nursery stock. My father's farm (he had his own in addition to our family farm), was immediately put into producing nursery stock (mostly trees) about 15 years ago when he sold it. Grass seed has been a going concern for decades, but I think some of the byproduct is grass hay for animals?

When I drive down 99W I see a lot of land in nursery stock now, converted from growing food.

Meanwhile, converting from growing nursery stock to growing food won't happen overnight, no matter how much they will want it to. You don't just convert the ground from growing that vegetation to growing something else that fast. Putting in a new apple orchard takes at least a couple of years before it starts producing. Removing landscaping bushes and growing carrots takes time. It takes energy and labor too.

A big question will be the supply of diesel. If there ain't much, the farmland will be able to absorb fairly large populations because farming will get a lot more manual. If there is enough, the tractors and harvesters will still run and the farmers won't want to see people walking down their roads...

For a long time manual labor was a huge issue - both the cost and finding people who would work on the farm harvesting crops (tending the crops was not as big an effort and we could usually find people to do that).

Even when I was a kid, finding good workers who would work harvesting fruit for a low wage was almost impossible and it has only gotten worse. I saw an article on FB today lamenting the woes of migrant child farm workers who had to work in the field long days from when they were young - not mentioning that when young they didn't do this while in school. I worked in the fields from when I was 5 or 6, right along with everybody else and I turned out okay - I wasn't scarred from the ordeal. It was a common thing back then for many children to get out of school and go work in the berry or bean fields.

Today, it is mostly machines that harvest the crops. They have finally found ways to harvest many types of berries and other fruit with machines. Different plants and different varieties of fruit. Because it is now much harder to get people to work in the fields and much less expensive in the long run to use a machine - especially if you are a larger successful operation and can afford the expensive custom made machinery.

As energy becomes more expensive, especially fossil fuels, we will switch to renewable energy, but this will affect food prices nonetheless as the energy will be more expensive and switching over the motive power will be expensive. They do not yet have electrical power storage that has the density and affordable cost to replace the diesel engines that drive tractors and other machinery in the fields - especially the tractors. At some point the cost of diesel will have to exceed that of biodiesel.

If there is a sudden SHTF event - like the Cascadia earthquake, then a lot of the food production will have to shift to manual labor because we won't be able to fuel the machines. I can just hear the complaints of those unaccustomed to hard manual work, who have to do hard manual labor to earn enough to eat - they won't want to do it, they will want the government to feed them.

If the sh*t hits the fan hard enough, all mortgages will disappear and possession will equal ownership. Yet another thing to consider.

That would require a total socio-economic collapse. Something the doomsayers have been predicting since the 50s, and it hasn't happened yet. Meanwhile, most preppers are preparing for an overnight SHTF event of that magnitude, while ignoring climate change and population growth.

 

[The Heretic]

I read somewhere a year or so ago that if you have 5k in the bank, you are in the top 10% of wealth in the US.

If you have $5k in the bank and you don't have any debt, you are ahead of most people in the USA. Most people have a lot more debt than they have assets.

I have a friend whose brother I was paying to help me move from Seattle to here about 5 years ago. He had moved in with his brother because he had no money to pay rent. Everything he owned was in his car. I asked him if he had any debt and he said no. I told him he was ahead of 90% of the country even though he was flat broke; he didn't owe anybody anything.

Those who own arable land, even with a mortgage, will quite possibly be in a better and better position in the future. I would rather own ten acres of land that can produce food, and has water, than a million dollar condo in the city.

 

[albin25]

While we worry about the cost of living (it up)...
75% of the World worries about the cost of surviving.

Teaching much of America's youth that working with their hands is beneath them, only for the uneducated, the dull or the hapless, educators are giving most kid's futures back to the very misery our Grandparents escaped. Contrary to current progressive dogma, America's middle class wasn't built by people with bachelor's degrees in Social Grievance and Master's in Diversity Studies, but by those with a trade, an understanding of business and no fear of hard work. If the SHTF they are the ones best equipped to survive it...if there are any left.

Much of our youth have no idea how good food tastes after a hard day and how great a sleeping bag feels after carrying a gas powered rock drill through frozen muskeg and dense bush just to drill and set a surveyor's iron peg in the middle of nowhere...the lucky one's do, they'll have the better odds of survival.
In an odd mirror image of history I can almost see the Natives (Us) relying on the Pilgrims (mostly Mexican) to learn how to survive.
(woohoo!! turkey enchiladas for Thanksgiving?)


I guess what I'm rambling on and on about is that it seems like we would rather distract ourselves with "scenarios" and "stockpiling of whatever" and "who's gonna shoot who first" and such...
Anybody got a plan to maybe prevent it in the first place?

Here, I'll get us started...
1) Vote against Hillary, whomever pollsters say is in the lead that isn't Democrat...vote for them (hold your nose if you must). Doesn't matter if it's Homer Simpson...
...Hillary must never become President.
2) Elevate the stature of tradesmen, entrepreneurs, etc.

 

[SOrez]

I live on 1.75 acres in S.O. I have had a garden for a couple of years that will help sustain me, my family and friends. The well has a surface pump and puts out 16 gpm of drinkable water. I live near an unincorporated area, that might be a problem if something happens. I get along with all of my neighbors and we all think alike.

 

[IronMonster]

While we worry about the cost of living (it up)...
75% of the World worries about the cost of surviving.


1) Vote against Hillary, whomever pollsters say is in the lead that isn't Democrat...vote for them (hold your nose if you must). Doesn't matter if it's Homer Simpson...
...Hillary must never become President.
2) Elevate the stature of tradesmen, entrepreneurs, etc.

Number two is not required, It will happen naturally and quickly if there is a TEOTWAWKI event

 

[edslhead]

Don't know about starting a survival farm. With all the possible catastrophes that might occur it could be where TSHTF fist. I sure could see a few people going in on 20 or more acres for a getaway with an informal shooting range.

 

[Joe13]

Don't know about starting a survival farm. With all the possible catastrophes that might occur it could be where TSHTF fist. I sure could see a few people going in on 20 or more acres for a getaway with an informal shooting range.

Trying to share a house with a room mate can be a nightmare (even with good friends), I can not imagine a situation where it isn't a full time job for one of the group to collect the money each month to pay for the property.

I guess there are people that could afford to fork out the cash to pay it all up front, but none of my friends are like that (ok, one lives in a million+ dollar house but that is the exception).

 

[The Heretic]

Trying to share a house with a room mate can be a nightmare (even with good friends), I can not imagine a situation where it isn't a full time job for one of the group to collect the money each month to pay for the property.

I guess there are people that could afford to fork out the cash to pay it all up front, but none of my friends are like that (ok, one lives in a million+ dollar house but that is the exception).

The payments could be put into escrow ahead of time and then an automatic payment made each month from the escrow account. It could be setup such a way that the individual contributions would be required well ahead of time (maybe several months ahead) so that anyone not contributing a particular month could then be contacted and hopefully the issue resolved, well before that particular payment was required.

A contract would need to be written up to require the payments - something like if somebody stops making payments then they forfeit their equity equal to the payment and a penalty, or worse, as incentive for each person to pay each month.

Still, it could get messy, and that is the least of it.

These kinds of things sound great at first and everybody is all gungho, and then after a few years one member gets a divorce, another has to pay for braces for their kids, and another just plain loses interest. Pretty soon there are less and less people making the payments, it becomes more of a burden for those still in the game, and then the lawsuits begin (if they didn't already), even with an ironclad contract.

And that's the least of it.

The last time I had a roommate was in college and I swore never again to go there. Even family can have problems with jointly owned property; BTDT.

IMO - it simply isn't a good idea. Maybe adjoining plots owned by like minded people, but even then there are usually problems. I live on a private road with 8 houses on it, and the only thing that we have to pay for jointly is the upkeep of the road. When it came time to repave it, everybody pitched in except one resident, who pleaded poverty, but is always buying new motorcycles and such. There is always at least one person like this in any group - they want the benefits, but they don't want to pay for them or put in the effort.

 

[The Heretic]

Don't know about starting a survival farm. With all the possible catastrophes that might occur it could be where TSHTF fist.

I wouldn't want to get fisted by SHTF either. ;-)

 

[The Heretic]

All you have to do to see the impact is look at how much you spent the last year or two on food and fuel until the US gov. artificially brought down the price of oil by allowing fracking in the midwest (polluting water and land and causing earthquakes in the region). The OPEC nations responded by increasing production and lowering prices to kill off the fracking and they succeeded (a lot of those companies either went bankrupt or stopped the fracking) so as to maintain their monopoly on oil. How long that will last remains to be seen, but it won't last forever - over the long run food and energy and land prices will continue upwards.

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/ci...illion-budget-deficit-amid-falling-oil-prices