If the SHTF and you have to defend, which bullet would you want?

[Randini]

Soft points would be NO.2 for me but keep in mind that we have a system of arteries and the more/rapid blood loss the better for self defense,unless you score a head shot then its all over anyhow, as far as heavy coats I cant see a heavy coat slowing down a bullet that much in fact a high velocity bullet may be helped in regards to expanding by a heavy coat , this is a very good link all about the damage from different bullet types.
<broken link removed>
it really is a great read.

 

[Randini]

After my last post I had to look up what an OTM bullet was, just didnt know here is a list of bullet types, why do they keep coming up with new ones ??

ACC &#8211; Remington Accelerator [2] (see sabot)
AP &#8211; Armor Piercing (has a steel or other hard metal core)
BBWC &#8211; Bevel Base Wadcutter
BEB &#8211; Brass Enclosed Base
Blitz &#8211; Sierra BlitzKing
Bt &#8211; Boat-tail
BtHP &#8211; Boat-tail Hollow Point
CB &#8211; Cast Bullet
CL, C-L &#8211; Remington Core-Lokt
DEWC &#8211; Double Ended Wadcutter
DU &#8211; Depleted Uranium
EVO, FTX &#8211; Hornady LEVERevolution Flex Tip eXpanding
FMJ &#8211; Full Metal Jacket
FMC &#8211; Full Metal Case
FN &#8211; Flat Nose
FP &#8211; Flat Point
FST &#8211; Winchester Fail Safe Talon
GC &#8211; Gas Check
GD &#8211; Speer Gold Dot
GDHP &#8211; Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point
GS &#8211; Remington Golden Saber
HBWC &#8211; Hollow Base Wadcutter
HC &#8211; Hard Cast
HP &#8211; Hollow Point
HPJ &#8211; High Performance Jacketed
HS &#8211; Federal Hydra-Shok
HST &#8211; Federal Hi-Shok Two
J &#8211; Jacketed
JFP &#8211; Jacketed Flat Point JHC &#8211; Jacketed Hollow Cavity
JHP &#8211; Jacketed Hollow Point
JHP/sabot &#8211; Jacketed Hollow Point/sabot
JSP &#8211; Jacketed Soft Point
L &#8211; Lead
L-C &#8211; Lead Combat
L-T &#8211; Lead Target
LFN &#8211; Long Flat Nose
LFP &#8211; Lead Flat Point
LHP &#8211; Lead Hollow Point
LRN &#8211; Lead Round Nose
LSWC &#8211; Lead Semiwadcutter
LSWC-GC &#8211; Lead Semiwadcutter Gas Checked
LWC &#8211; Lead Wadcutter
LTC &#8211; Lead Truncated Cone
MC &#8211; Metal Cased
MHP &#8211; Match Hollow Point
MK &#8211; Sierra MatchKing
MRWC &#8211; Mid-Range Wadcutter
NP &#8211; Nosler Partition
OTM &#8211; Open Tip Match
OWC &#8211; Ogival Wadcutter [3]
PB &#8211; Lead Bullet
PB &#8211; Parabellum
PL &#8211; Remington Power-Lokt
PSP &#8211; Plated Soft Point
PSP, PTDSP &#8211; Pointed Soft Point
RN &#8211; Round Nose RNFP &#8211; Round Nose Flat Point
RNL &#8211; Round Nosed Lead
SJ &#8211; Semi-Jacketed
SJHP &#8211; Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point
SJSP &#8211; Semi-Jacketed Soft Point
SP &#8211; Soft Point
SP &#8211; Spire Point
Sp,SPTZ &#8211; Spitzer
SpHP &#8211; Spitzer Hollow Point
SST &#8211; Hornady Super Shock Tip
SSp &#8211; Semi-Spitzer
ST &#8211; Silver Tip
STHP &#8211; Silver Tip Hollow Point
SWC &#8211; Semiwadcutter
SX &#8211; Super Explosive
SXT &#8211; Winchester Ranger Supreme Expansion Technology
TC &#8211; Truncated Cone
TMJ &#8211; Total Metal Jacket
TNT &#8211; Speer TNT
VMAX &#8211; Hornady V-Max
VLD &#8211; Very Low Drag
WC &#8211; Wadcutter
WFN &#8211; Wide Flat Nose
WFNGC &#8211; Wide Flat Nose Gas Check
WLN &#8211; Wide Long Nose
X &#8211; Barnes X-Bullet
XTP &#8211; Hornady Extreme Terminal Performance

 

[Gunner3456]

Soft points would be NO.2 for me but keep in mind that we have a system of arteries and the more/rapid blood loss the better for self defense,unless you score a head shot then its all over anyhow, as far as heavy coats I cant see a heavy coat slowing down a bullet that much in fact a high velocity bullet may be helped in regards to expanding by a heavy coat , this is a very good link all about the damage from different bullet types.
<broken link removed>
it really is a great read.

Wow. Great read. Thanks.

 

[BrianL]

If I had only one choice I would go with JHP in my AK. To me it seams like a all around good round. I can use it for defence, hunting, and it has decent penetration. I have 5 AK mags that I keep loaded for the SHTF type situation. 3 mags have JHPs and 2 have FMJs.

 

[Oohrah]

The question was which of the three would you choose. I'll stand by distance and speed for bullet performance. HP is not a penetrator, soft point will travel the distance into a vital area. The ball may or may not perform, but can go beyond, with an unknown avenue of travel. I find this caliber to be inadequate to predict this cartridge, to any consistant results.
Yeah you can kill with it or any other caliber/ bullet that reaches vital areas. However, I can't recall any training with 30 Cals where I was told a double tap or multiple hits to vital area was needed. Only hits count and ballistic tests in a block of media, don't convince me of anything. Serving as a LEO, I was very disappointed in instant death with my duty weapon a .357 Mag, in a 4" Smith Model 28. The 30 Carbine with a 100 grain Hornady half jacket. at around 2000 fps, out performed the handgun with one shot instant death on the spot. Choose what you like, but hits that penetrate into vital areas with tissue distruction usually stop any arguement you might have. For this round to punch through anything is iffy. It's a varmit cartridge, with many changes to get performance out of it Personal opinion is it's like taking a knife to a gun fight. Not smart on my part to even question that, most likely I would use a larger caliber for peace of mind, and security If you think a centermass hit will penetrate armor and into the vitals, I don't have a dog in that fight, but you might not be able to have other options. I'll stick with what I know works, and respect your opinions .

 

[motohead185]

go with what your local lawenforcement uses because if there is any law left after a SHTF moment and you have to kill some MZB's at least you will not get in too much trouble.

 

[Oohrah]

Pretty close to no law now due to cut backs. Next state over is a max prision. Guards must take a 4 day week to save money, and those bad boys will be on the street again much sooner in many cases. Won't be theory for very long, so a game plan woundn't hurt. Things that will not work in a military situation, most likely will fail in a civilian setting. Use what you wish, but I would rather do an over kill, than be lacking something that would put me down and out!

 

[Gunner3456]

Pretty close to no law now due to cut backs. Next state over is a max prision. Guards must take a 4 day week to save money, and those bad boys will be on the street again much sooner in many cases. Won't be theory for very long, so a game plan woundn't hurt. Things that will not work in a military situation, most likely will fail in a civilian setting. Use what you wish, but I would rather do an over kill, than be lacking something that would put me down and out!

You talking about Pelican Bay where they house the worst of the worst? Oh ****.

California can't afford to keep running that thing either. What if TSHTF and they can't get food in there? What if the guards become afraid to go in there?

Geez, 3,300 of the worst people who belong in **** and what do you do with them, just over the border from Oregon?

Pelican Bay

 

[Gunner3456]

OK guys, come and get me. Fireproof roof. Cement siding. NO windows on far side of house or back of house on the first floor for fire protection. View out is from above. Heavy steel exterior doors including garage doors. Ability to block road. Not just driveway - the whole road. Really good neighbors all except one who'd better be polite in a crisis. He's anti-gun and on his own.

Lots of clean water both in the well and a nearby small but year around creek. Backs up to wilderness.

Some call the third story windows dormers but I call them turrets, LOL.

Come and get me, LOL.


View attachment 224962

 

[Oohrah]

That was the place I had in mind, My avenue of fire is simular to yours, except I have several egress ways of leaving. Could mean catching some with their hands full on the way out. Armed and willing neighbors with a plan are essential safely factors.
Guess you could call those leaving their care facitlites, fixing to stay and raise ****, pop up targets???

 

[Gunner3456]

That was the place I had in mind, My avenue of fire is simular to yours, except I have several egress ways of leaving. Could mean catching some with their hands full on the way out. Armed and willing neighbors with a plan are essential safely factors.
Guess you could call those leaving their care facitlites, fixing to stay and raise ****, pop up targets???

Yeah, my neighbors are hunters. I believe we'd catch the BG's in a crossfire, no kidding. No better signal to the neighborhood than gunfire.

 

[Gunner3456]

That was the place I had in mind, My avenue of fire is simular to yours, except I have several egress ways of leaving. Could mean catching some with their hands full on the way out. Armed and willing neighbors with a plan are essential safely factors.
Guess you could call those leaving their care facitlites, fixing to stay and raise ****, pop up targets???

There are 3,300 of them and all are the worst of the worst. They wouldn't all come in your direction, but you'd need lots of ammo, I'll bet.

 

[spengo]

OK, I'm getting ready to load some more 5.56 rounds for my AR.

Question. The military uses 55gr FMJ due to the Geneva convention. But, if you were defending your home or bugging out, would you rather have:

1. FMJ

2. PSP

3. JHP

I'm not asking about bullet weight or whether this is the "best" caliber, just type of bullet for self defense. A FMJ will penetrate heavy clothing, helmets, etc. better, but the others "might" have more stopping power?

Which would it be?

Actually it was the hague convention that banned jhp, not geneva if I recall. Also we never signed either of those conventions we just follow them to be politically correct, and we only do so most of the time (e.g. we still use claymore mines that when used with tripwires are against the mine ban treaty, also mk 262 is technically jhp even though it is also uses fragmentation rather than controlled expansion).

For defense in my AR I use 75gr or 77gr boat tail jhp, (same as mk 262) because that stuff is totally kickass out of a 1:7 twist barrel.

EDIT: whoops, didn't notice someone had already mentioned the hague thing.

 

[Trlsmn]

Federal HST because it opens into a purdy flower.

 

[Oohrah]

Either two or three! Use #one, for targets or headshots!!! Some hollow points are kind of fragile and at high velocity may not get into that center mass chest cavity. Most soft nosed unless deflected by major bone, will penetrate deeper into that cavity. The more damage done in that area, the quicker the fight ends. Might be a partition, may be a little spendy, but cover larger circumstances. When you get your sights on target, destroy as much tissue in the vital area, per round, as possible. Different between war with rules, and survival. Only hits count!!!! Spaced hits in that area, are more effective than tight little groups.

 

[zeezee]

The rounds that we selected to stop a human in his tracks were not the loads designed for taking down deer. We used the ones designed for taking out prairie dogs. We used the softest tips that we could find. We wanted our rounds to turn to powder inside the chest cavity. We did not want any kinetic energy to be expended through a hole in someone's back. We wanted all that kinetic energy adsorbed by his body so we used rounds that would not exit. (An added benefit to rounds that turn to powder is that ballistics tests cannot be performed on them to match them to your particular weapon.) I like this idea.

 

[Randini]

The rounds that we selected to stop a human in his tracks were not the loads designed for taking down deer. We used the ones designed for taking out prairie dogs. We used the softest tips that we could find. We wanted our rounds to turn to powder inside the chest cavity. We did not want any kinetic energy to be expended through a hole in someone's back. We wanted all that kinetic energy adsorbed by his body so we used rounds that would not exit. (An added benefit to rounds that turn to powder is that ballistics tests cannot be performed on them to match them to your particular weapon.) I like this idea.

+1

 

[dobanion]

Which FMJ? 55 grainer with a cannalure is my choice. Tumble and fragment. I also got a 1/12" twist barrel to maximize effectiveness with 55s and increase the tendency for the bullet to tumble.

With a 1/7" twist, and heavier, longer, stronger projectiles, there's good chance of no fragment or even no tumble, so then maybe hollow points make more sense.

PSPs never for the deformation problems mentioned.

 

[Oohrah]

Only problem is those unstable ( tumble on impact ) will not always be consistant. One of the problems in early Nam days was the bullets were not stabilized and accuracy also suffered. Tumble is not necessary a great thing even though it does some prettly good tissue damage, it sometimes isn't in the correct area. Controlled, or violently controlled is superior to the tumbled bullet, that may not even penetrate to a vital area. Also a trumbler will seldom fragment. I have a bolt run M 700 with a PacNor barrel in 1 in 12 that optium is a 40 gr Nosler Balistic Tip. It will shoot the 55 gr. but not with the same accuracy as the lighter. Haven't tried them all, and bullet shapes can be a big time difference. My Ruger 77/22Hornet loves the Hornady 35 gr V max. No clue the effect either bullet has, but anything that doesn't penetrate into the vitals, before expending the energy isn't going to work on larger like man size. If it explodes in a squirrel sized target or doesn't exit a small animal, it probably will not be much good for larger animals!
I like the thought of what Randini has, but once again there have to be more than a reasonable amount of penetration for this to work. Penetration into the chest cavity is a must. Might be that something like Barnes Grenade bullet would work to get into that honey spot. I forget the name, but there is a heavily scored bullet jacket, that splits into three pieces as it hits resistance. Unless I was able to do testing on man sized animals, I would stick with controled expansion, soft points, and hollow points, rather than theory. I really don't care if someone wants to compare bullets to a rifle. It isn't an exact science, nor would it likely be something for concern during a SHTF. More information can be found on the brass case than bullets, that are seldom found, or intact enough to point to a single firearm. Mainly it is to connect a particular gun to multiple crimes. In fact State crime labs seldom exchange information between states!
My concern would be to put the target out of the fight as quickly and permanently as possible. The rest is secondary.

 

[PMKN_PI]

I dont think too many "bandits" would be carrying type IIIa or better body armor...

Taxpayer-funded 'bandits' might, though....