Ideas For Kayaking With A Firearm

[cosmos mariner]

Again, thank you for the replies. As of right now, I'm leaning towards getting one of those Hill People kit bags. It seems like one would be useful for a variety of uses and settings. I liked the idea of putting the gun in a pocket holster and keeping it in a pocket of my PFD, but then thought better of it. I like to take the PFD off now and then especially if it's a warm sunny day. Always nice to work on that tan ya know. I've also used it as a cushion when sitting on the side of the river taking a break. With the kit bag/Fanny pack, I could take the PFD off will trekking around the shoreline and still have everything important within reach on my hip. Looks like it could even work as a small tackle box when doing some shoreline fishing.

As for a gun, I've got a cheap Taurus G2C that sounds like it will fit the bill at the present moment. I would replace it with a Glock someday if the right one came across my path for cheap. I don't think I will take my S&W 442, which I prefer for carry, just because it seems like it wouldn't fair as well if it were to get dunked. Plus, the more than twice the amount of rounds in the magazine of the Taurus would be a benefit over the revolver, especially since I don't think I'd be carrying the speed strips in my pocket/kit bag while on the boat. Extra ammo would most likely be in a dry box in the storage compartment.

Alright, one more part of the planning process mostly decided. Now time to continue on with the other prep for the trip. Thanks gents.

 

[Tilos]

If pepper spray is adequate for SD against humans on/near water its presumably adequate the rest of the time against people too. However I don't believe that. Spray doesn't always work when fired at more than trivial distances or against a strong headwind, though the stream type might help. And there is nothing that promises that a homeless person isnt going to have a gun and be beyond your spray's range. And every single aggressive stray male dog that came after my b!tch when she was in heat--about half a dozen over the years--were unimpressed by the spray and just snorted or sneezed--even with a full spray from two or three feet right in their faces. And possible attacks from a dog are one reason for carrying a gun. I think rivers or lakes can attract homeless people , so think you are much more likely to run into dangerous homeless people near a river or lake than dangerous people in a woods not near water. If its more a wilderness type area you might have bears and cougars. You may need to kill a stubborn porcupine that is gnawing on your kayak if its wood, or canoe paddles or oars. Especially the handles, to get the salt from your hands. Or who is eating your boots. Then there's rabid animals, poisonous snakes, and if in Florida, alligators.

Thanks for posting your personal experience using pepper spray and all the "what ifs".
You have quite a creative imagination dreaming up all those hypothetical situations where pepper spray would not work.
So...
OK, nevermind,
FYI, what I carry:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FWKBB2S/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

 

[OldBroad44]

Thanks for posting your personal experience using pepper spray and all the "what ifs".
You have quite a creative imagination dreaming up all those hypothetical situations where pepper spray would not work.
So...
OK, nevermind,
FYI, what I carry:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07FWKBB2S/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

The scenarios in which spray doesn't work are not my original imagination but well-known limits and downsides of sprays that I've read about dozens of times in various places. Nor are they even all the possible well-known liabilities. For example, there are different formulations, some more effective on bears, some on people. And different strengths. In some states only the low strength relatively ineffective versions are legal for citizens to own.

There's a big difference between a pop-bottle-sized can of bear spray and a dinky little keychain sized pepper spray gadget.

If you're planning on depending on any spray device I suggest getting an extra and try spraying with it under different weather conditions. Hard rain. Against the wind. In a cross wind. You might find that your dinky-spray can't even spray five feet in a mild cross breeze.

As for imagination... If the bad guy has already grabbed you, he might be able to kill you even after sprayed depending on his discipline when sprayed. Virtually all military trained men have gone through training to allow them to at least do some disciplined actions after being sprayed. Meaning if they have already grabbed you and are stronger, bigger, younger than you, they may be able to kill you even after being sprayed. If, on the other hand, they are ten feet away and see you aiming spray they may be able to dodge, turn away, draw a gun, etc.

I think 90% of being effective with any defensive situation is having thought enough about possible scenarios ahead of time. Sort of like knowing many chess openings and standard tactics vs knowing nothing beyond how the pieces move.

 

[ma96782]

Since I'm mostly a salt water guy.....I was thinking "Sharks"?

Start your viewing at 5:00

Aloha, Mark

PS....lacking the F/A BAR.
Why not? The M1 Garand.....like in Jaws? But, you'll need to supply the scuba tank.

 

[arrowshooter]

Since you don't seem to be to worried about an "instant" need for access, look at the waterproof camera box as mentioned above, or a simple dry bag/pouch. They will all float, but tether it to keep it from floating away.

 

[Koda]

Pepper spray is a better than a gun to deescalate non deadly violence from turning deadly, I would think the gun community would embrace the use of spray, but to dismiss its limitations in a deadly force encounter is just as bad.

 

[OldBroad44]

Since I'm mostly a salt water guy.....I was thinking "Sharks"?

Start your viewing at 5:00

Aloha, Mark

PS....lacking the F/A BAR.
Why not? The M1 Garand.....like in Jaws? But, you'll need to supply the scuba tank.
View attachment 1158157

Wouldn't rifle or machine gun bullets ricochet instead of penetrating water when shot at such a shallow angle?

However, hitting the fin would likely cause shark to drop attack. And even a bullet in water anywhere near shark even ricocheting off water might discourage shark. Anybody know?

As a part Florida-raised kid, one thing I was taught is if approached by or bumped by a shark, punch it in the nose as hard as possible. The nose is full of sensors and is sensitive. Sharks may bump a human because they are trying to figure out what we are and whether we might be dinner. Supposedly a blow in the nose can be discouraging enough that many sharks will be deterred and go look for some other non-nose-punching dinner. Apparently this sometimes at least works. How often it doesn't work we probably don't know.

 

[ma96782]

As for the amount of bullet "penetration in water"?
Well, say it this way......I'd take the shot(s).

But, I might be/get accused of having too much fun.

Aloha, Mark

PS.....Today, it's not PC to be randomly killing sharks. Even the consumption of shark fin soup is sometimes frowned upon due to the way the fins are gathered. BTW......my mother used to say that the best-tasting fish cake was made with some shark meat mixed in.

 

[Flopsweat]

Whatever you choose, wipe the gun down before each trip with something like WD40 as mentioned earlier. Eezox is also very effective against rust. Some folks will tell you that WD40 will build up and eventually get gummy. I've never had that happen, but when I do my annual deep clean, I use a gun cleaner like Hoppes 9, which will remove anything else that's on the gun. I think you'd need to go several years without a good cleaning for it to become an issue. So long as you cover every metal part with a good rust deterrent before your outing and clean the gun again when you get home if it got damp, you should be just fine. You could even carry a little spray can of WD40 with you. If you dunk the gun, dry it as best you can and then hose it down with WD40. It will literally drive the water out of the hard-to-reach areas.

I've dunked guns in puddles and snowbanks, carried them on quads in the rain for hours, and never had a problem. On a quad, I just carry IWB inside my gear. I assume that's a less practical solution for a kayaker, just saying. On lightly rainy days I don't always wear rain gear because it's a pain to get on and off along with the knee and elbow pads and whatnot. So the gun does get wet every now and then. I usually carry a Glock and it handles the wet just fine. There is not a speck of rust on that gun anywhere.

 

[Koda]

Wouldn't rifle or machine gun bullets ricochet instead of penetrating water when shot at such a shallow angle?

I watched a training video years ago that tested bullet deflection thru a cars windshield. the takeaway was bullets deflect barriers at right angles, so if you have to shoot thru your windshield aim low for the belt buckles.

I dont know how this applies to water, but maybe aim for the top of the back of the shark and when the bullet hits the water it should deflect towards the center of the shark...? I do think the high velocity would overcome the potential to skip off the surface.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Like @papersoldier posted..

Special Boat Squadron; UK.

PFDs that have extra pockets and such, useful. The military tend to have tactical vests/harnesses with PFD interfacing or flotation foam inserts. I agree with chest pack (HPG, Kifaru, etc), and fanny pack with laynards.

 

[Flopsweat]

Like @papersoldier posted..

Special Boat Squadron; UK.

PFDs that have extra pockets and such, useful. The military tend to have tactical vests/harnesses with PFD interfacing or flotation foam inserts. I agree with chest pack (HPG, Kifaru, etc), and fanny pack with laynards. View attachment 1158238View attachment 1158239

They look like sitting ducks. Or I guess swimming ducks...

 

[Koda]

if the army gave me a boat with a paddle I would have to defect.

 

[thorborg]

 

[thebigbaby]

Little Joey Pack

The perfect chest pack for any activity. Whether you are hiking, biking, fishing, or going to Disneyland with the family, the Little Joey Pack is the perfect piece of equipment to carry all of your essentials. You will no longer need to over-stuff your pockets with everyday carry items; instead...

www.marsupialgear.com

 

[Tilos]

The scenarios in which spray doesn't work are not my original imagination but well-known limits and downsides of sprays that I've read about dozens of times in various places. Nor are they even all the possible well-known liabilities. For example, there are different formulations, some more effective on bears, some on people. And different strengths. In some states only the low strength relatively ineffective versions are legal for citizens to own.

There's a big difference between a pop-bottle-sized can of bear spray and a dinky little keychain sized pepper spray gadget.

If you're planning on depending on any spray device I suggest getting an extra and try spraying with it under different weather conditions. Hard rain. Against the wind. In a cross wind. You might find that your dinky-spray can't even spray five feet in a mild cross breeze.

As for imagination... If the bad guy has already grabbed you, he might be able to kill you even after sprayed depending on his discipline when sprayed. Virtually all military trained men have gone through training to allow them to at least do some disciplined actions after being sprayed. Meaning if they have already grabbed you and are stronger, bigger, younger than you, they may be able to kill you even after being sprayed. If, on the other hand, they are ten feet away and see you aiming spray they may be able to dodge, turn away, draw a gun, etc.

I think 90% of being effective with any defensive situation is having thought enough about possible scenarios ahead of time. Sort of like knowing many chess openings and standard tactics vs knowing nothing beyond how the pieces move.

OK, I'll be brief
I try not to use anything "I've read about dozens of times in various places" as a bases for any of my posts, just 1st hand experiences.
I have had 2 1st hand events dealing with pepper spring that were quite different from what your research and conclusions represent.

I read about Pom pepper spray at a well known/respected youtuber, not "various places", check it out:

https://www.youtube.com/c/ActiveSelfProtectionExtra/search?query=pepper%20spray%20

This guy: https://www.youtube.com/c/ActiveSelfProtectionExtra/featured

I don't think anyone has ever been sued/arrested for using pepper spray to stop a threat, but have most certainly been arrested/sued for shooting someone.

To keep this relevant, and paraphrasing the OP, who said he "couldn't sleep at night if he lost his gun while kayaking and someone else found it".
I'm thinking he would not miss a wink of sleep if he lost his pepper spray.

I'm done with any further back in forth (with you), as we have drifted way off topic, take the last word if you feel the need, but know I won't be reading/responding to it.
If I agreed with you here, we'd both be wrong.
jmo,

 

[OldBroad44]

I watched a training video years ago that tested bullet deflection thru a cars windshield. the takeaway was bullets deflect barriers at right angles, so if you have to shoot thru your windshield aim low for the belt buckles.

I dont know how this applies to water, but maybe aim for the top of the back of the shark and when the bullet hits the water it should deflect towards the center of the shark...? I do think the high velocity would overcome the potential to skip off the surface.

We were talking about ricochet of bullets off the surface of water. And ricochets do tend to bounce off the surface of water or other flat objects roughly at the same angle as they hit. Just like how an unspinning pool ball bounces off the side of pool table. Actually bullets seem to hit a bit lower (at a kesser angle) than expected from theory, possibly because of gauging medium, smashing bullet, non-perfectly round shape of bullet, etc. However, at a steep enough angle the bullet penetrates the water instead of bouncing off. After penetrating surface of water bullet should go in a straight line as modified by gravity.

If you are aiming your gun through a windshield at something that deserves to be aimed at, your bullet is going to hit the windshield at a sharp enough angle to penetrate through the windshield, not bounce off. So the theoretical rule of deflecting at the same angle hitting is not relevant since the bullet penetrates and does not ricochet/deflect.

I think you are trying to get at how much the path of the bullet is deflected/altered by going through something like a windshield. I've never seen anyone test this. YouTube videos usually are testing the ammo shooting from outside the car so to speak and seem to just care whether they hit the dummy inside. I've never seen anyone alter their point of aim to compensate for any alteration in path of bullet caused by windshield. And they shoot once or twice, not enough to give us a group.

There are data from the hunting field that tell us that bullet design greatly affects how much a bullet deflects when hitting or passing through stuff. Round nose bullets are notorious for bouncing off bone or deflecting heavily as they go through it, leading to poor penetration. Hardcast bullets with flat noses and sharp edges are less likely to deflect off bone and more likely to go straight through bone and flesh and penetrate deeply. This is why handgun caliber bear loads usually have that design. A handgun caliber bullet doesn't have enough n power to both penetrate deeply and expand in a grizzly. So given a choice, penetration is better. Hardcast flat nosed bullets also make the best brush loads, presumably because they penetrate straight through twigs and small branches instead of changing course and missing or wounding the game animal behind the brush. (The classic Keith-shape loads are also a good shape for maximal penetration and minimal deflection.)

I think if I ever had to shoot someone from inside my car through the windshield, it would likely be because they were very close, such as trying to get in with a baseball bat. My guess is that at such a short distance between windshield and bad guy, with such a large target as human head or trunk, even a fairly significant deflection of bullet by passing through windshield wouldn't matter much. But I'm guessing. Anyone know more?

 

[Koda]

I think if I ever had to shoot someone from inside my car through the windshield, it would likely be because they were very close, such as trying to get in with a baseball bat. My guess is that at such a short distance between windshield and bad guy, with such a large target as human head or trunk, even a fairly significant deflection of bullet by passing through windshield wouldn't matter much. But I'm guessing. Anyone know more?

notice where his first shot landed compared to the rest. I also wouldn't create a set rule like always being close, too many scenarios.

 

[newmanator55]

Another vote for a polymer in a hpg or similar chest rig kit

 

[dangerranger60]

Pepper spray is a better than a gun to deescalate non deadly violence from turning deadly, I would think the gun community would embrace the use of spray, but to dismiss its limitations in a deadly force encounter is just as bad.

Pepper spray makes my eyes immediately swell shut, my nose plug, and my lungs hurt for hours after just being in a building where it had been used. I won't carry it at all. This is one of those things that would hurt me more than the BG!
I have seen it used on a lot of people, A good number it has no effect on. And serious junkies it seems to have the least effect on.
I retired from a large jail. DR