Private party firearm transfer denied

[The Heretic]

Another question: if the person fails the BGC (and it's a genuine fail, not some sort of error), is that person not lying on the 4473? Could it then be argued they're lucky that the $ is all that they're out?

It depends on the reason for the rejection/denial.

 

[Lazyfaire]

So the FFL can gain an item they didn't pay for and sell it for a profit??? Just sounds wrong

 

[RVTECH]

Why does the gun even need to be received and logged/booked by the FFL?

I'll tell ya why - because it's a 'back door' form of registration. If it wasn't then a prospective buyer could just have his BGC run and then if he clears both seller and buyer would be notified and the seller and buyer meet up - buyer with proof of BGC in hand.

 

[The Heretic]

Why does the gun even need to be received and logged/booked by the FFL?

ATF rules - maybe even law - but I believe it only applies if the firearm is left at the FFL overnight?

Dealer Acquisitions

Generally, for licensed dealers the purchase or other acquisition of a firearm shall be recorded not later than the close of the next business day after the date of the acquisition or purchase.

However, if commercial records containing the required information are available for inspection and are separate from other commercial documents, dealers have 7 days from the time of receipt to record the receipt in the acquisition and disposition (A&D) record.

 

[Alexx1401]

Was in my FFL this afternoon and asked them about this scenerio. (BTW I am in Texas). They agree that essentially the buyer is out of luck. They said that (supposedly) it is a person's responsibility to know that they would/would not pass a BGC. Once the item is entered into the FFL's 'book' it belongs to the FFL until an accepted BGC is passed. All of which I get and understand but still seems the buyer is bubblegummed!
Seems like there should be some avenue to satisfy all parties,

The "best" a buyer who paid and now can't own a gun is going to get is the FFL either buys it from them for the price they pay for the same gun that walks in the door, or sell it on consignment. If some FFL refused to do either of these? I suppose the buyer could take them to small claims court to try to get some of their money back. I imagine few courts are going to be overly friendly to some guy who is in this position since he tried to buy a gun and was not allowed to own one.

 

[Alexx1401]

Why does the gun even need to be received and logged/booked by the FFL?

I'll tell ya why - because it's a 'back door' form of registration. If it wasn't then a prospective buyer could just have his BGC run and then if he clears both seller and buyer would be notified and the seller and buyer meet up - buyer with proof of BGC in hand.

Sadly yes. Since this kind of thing started my big thing with it is in this state criminals can have any gun they want and state does nothing to them when they are caught. Only those who follow the law are the ones feeling any pain from these new laws. Hopefully more gun owners will pay a little attention at time to vote.

 

[Lazyfaire]

Sure would love to hear how this whole mess ends up being worked out. Some winners and one loser

 

[Lazyfaire]

Some people have bought guns then suddenly they get a denial. Now I have his money, hes got no gun and no money. The FFL now owns the gun they basically got for free. If the buyer does all the work in a reasonable amount of time, and I dont have to pay for my own BGC to get it back then I dont mind refunding the money.

See, I do not see that the FFL 'owns the gun'. I do not see that that is murky at all. Their 'job' is to be a middleman between a buyer and a seller. Even though it is 'in their book' does not mean that they have the right to just take the gun for their own. If they are saying that, to me that would be theft of property. I'm guessing they have already been paid their fees that were due them. To me this is probably the clearest part of this whole screwed up scenerio.

More info on just what the current status of the buyer is is relevant to the conversation. OK, he was denied. Why? What has transpired between he/her and the FFL? Was he given any options from them to satisfy the Keystone Kops (ATF)? Can he have someone else be viable to receive the gun (after passing his own BGC)?

If he cannot pass the BGC then he cannot transfer the gun to anyone, only the FFL can. But technically the FFL cannot because they do not own the gun. They did not take it in trade, nor did they purchase it from anyone. They are holding it as the middleman. They can only transfer it to someone designated by the denied buyer.

Look in the dictionary for the definition of clusterf**k and you will be directed to this situation!

 

[Alexx1401]

See, I do not see that the FFL 'owns the gun'. I do not see that that is murky at all. Their 'job' is to be a middleman between a buyer and a seller. Even though it is 'in their book' does not mean that they have the right to just take the gun for their own. If they are saying that, to me that would be theft of property. I'm guessing they have already been paid their fees that were due them. To me this is probably the clearest part of this whole screwed up scenerio.

This keeps getting beat to death
but as another mentioned I have not seen an actual FFL chime in here. How you "see it" sounds great. All that matters is how does Federal Law see it since they hold all the cards here. Are you a lawyer? FFL holder? Just stayed in a Holiday Inn last night?

 

[Koda]

See, I do not see that the FFL 'owns the gun'. I do not see that that is murky at all. Their 'job' is to be a middleman between a buyer and a seller. Even though it is 'in their book' does not mean that they have the right to just take the gun for their own. If they are saying that, to me that would be theft of property. I'm guessing they have already been paid their fees that were due them. To me this is probably the clearest part of this whole screwed up scenerio.

More info on just what the current status of the buyer is is relevant to the conversation. OK, he was denied. Why? What has transpired between he/her and the FFL? Was he given any options from them to satisfy the Keystone Kops (ATF)? Can he have someone else be viable to receive the gun (after passing his own BGC)?

If he cannot pass the BGC then he cannot transfer the gun to anyone, only the FFL can. But technically the FFL cannot because they do not own the gun. They did not take it in trade, nor did they purchase it from anyone. They are holding it as the middleman. They can only transfer it to someone designated by the denied buyer.

Look in the dictionary for the definition of clusterf**k and you will be directed to this situation!

If the FFL, cannot legally give the gun back to the seller without a BGC, then the FFL legally owns the gun in my book.

Id have no problem refunding the money if I got my gun back, free. And then nobody knows if the sellers BGC would end up getting denied. If the seller cant get his gun back, free, then its no longer his gun and he has no obligation to refund the money.

 

[raftman]

See, I do not see that the FFL 'owns the gun'. I do not see that that is murky at all. Their 'job' is to be a middleman between a buyer and a seller. Even though it is 'in their book' does not mean that they have the right to just take the gun for their own. If they are saying that, to me that would be theft of property. I'm guessing they have already been paid their fees that were due them. To me this is probably the clearest part of this whole screwed up scenerio.

More info on just what the current status of the buyer is is relevant to the conversation. OK, he was denied. Why? What has transpired between he/her and the FFL? Was he given any options from them to satisfy the Keystone Kops (ATF)? Can he have someone else be viable to receive the gun (after passing his own BGC)?

If he cannot pass the BGC then he cannot transfer the gun to anyone, only the FFL can. But technically the FFL cannot because they do not own the gun. They did not take it in trade, nor did they purchase it from anyone. They are holding it as the middleman. They can only transfer it to someone designated by the denied buyer.

Look in the dictionary for the definition of clusterf**k and you will be directed to this situation!

I think these objections have already been addressed. In all likelihood, the instant the BGC has failed, and the seller can't/won't return the money, the FFL likely won't simply say, "Well, guess it's my gun now!" precisely because it's legal gray area, at best. They'll probably encourage the buyer to appeal (pretty sure there's a process for this) and may be willing hold while that happens or they may work with buyer on some sort of consignment sale arrangement. But, if there's no movement on it for long enough it may become something like "abandoned property" and the FFL can become the actual legal owner.

There's certainly a precedent to this in other industries. For example, if someone drops a car off with a mechanic and can't/won't pay for the work done and thus can't pick up the car, there's a legal way for that to become the mechanic's car to dispense with.

I should add, I know of at least SOME FFL's that charge a daily "storage fee" if you order a gun and don't come pick it up within a certain time frame (usually a week). So if the buyer drags on working through their options, they may end up owing so much in storage fees that it may no longer be worth it and it becomes the FFL's that way.

 

[Jims Custom Stocks]

I am an FFL in Oregon. Lots of opinions here. My understanding is that as soon as I take possession of the firearm for sale and initiate a background check, it's entered into my books and inventory. There is extra information required to be entered in Oregon for a private party transfer. I'm required to enter sellers name address, document ID number, etc. The exception to entering it into my books right away being if I am doing gun repair and return the gun to the owner the same business day. If a background check is denied, I still have the firearm in my inventory. The firearm can be returned to the original seller after a background check of the seller has been completed. Seller pays any fees associated with this process. If the seller regains possession of the firearm, then it is up to the buyer and the seller to come to an agreement about how much, if any, will be refunded to the buyer. If the seller took off with the money before the background check is completed, the FFL has no obligation to try to track them down. A transfer can also be "delayed" up to a few months while more information for the background check is researched. When it's delayed, a tentative date is given when the FFL can transfer the firearm without an official approval number. This happens quite frequently for people with common names where some other person with an similar name has been on a crime spree in another state (I've had this happen a number of times). In this case the FFL retains possession of the firearm for an unknown period of time and is also responsible for recovering the firearm if it has been transferred to the buyer and the background check is ultimately denied. I personally refuse to turn over a firearm without a completed background check associated with an approval number. This is the reason many FFL's don't want to do private party transfers or will charge a lot more than a normal transfer. There could also be a condition where the seller can't pass a background check and get their firearm back. Then the firearm belongs to the dealer who, if he is benevolent, could sell the firearm at a commission and give the original seller the proceeds. The firearm could also show up as stolen (I've had this happen) then the seller is pretty much obligated to return the buyers payment. In this case the local police will pick up the firearm from the dealer within a very short period of time. Then the firearm is returned to the original owner who reported it stolen. My best advice is that money, other than a good faith down payment, should not change hands until a background check has been approved.

 

[Koda]

My best advice is that money, other than a good faith down payment, should not change hands until a background check has been approved.

Then we circle back to the part about the gun is now registered to the buyer, should he decide to back out of the deal.

 

[Camelfilter]

I am an FFL in Oregon. Lots of opinions here. My understanding is that as soon as I take possession of the firearm for sale and initiate a background check, it's entered into my books and inventory. There is extra information required to be entered in Oregon for a private party transfer. I'm required to enter sellers name address, document ID number, etc. The exception to entering it into my books right away being if I am doing gun repair and return the gun to the owner the same business day. If a background check is denied, I still have the firearm in my inventory. The firearm can be returned to the original seller after a background check of the seller has been completed. Seller pays any fees associated with this process. If the seller regains possession of the firearm, then it is up to the buyer and the seller to come to an agreement about how much, if any, will be refunded to the buyer. If the seller took off with the money before the background check is completed, the FFL has no obligation to try to track them down. A transfer can also be "delayed" up to a few months while more information for the background check is researched. When it's delayed, a tentative date is given when the FFL can transfer the firearm without an official approval number. This happens quite frequently for people with common names where some other person with an similar name has been on a crime spree in another state (I've had this happen a number of times). In this case the FFL retains possession of the firearm for an unknown period of time and is also responsible for recovering the firearm if it has been transferred to the buyer and the background check is ultimately denied. I personally refuse to turn over a firearm without a completed background check associated with an approval number. This is the reason many FFL's don't want to do private party transfers or will charge a lot more than a normal transfer. There could also be a condition where the seller can't pass a background check and get their firearm back. Then the firearm belongs to the dealer who, if he is benevolent, could sell the firearm at a commission and give the original seller the proceeds. The firearm could also show up as stolen (I've had this happen) then the seller is pretty much obligated to return the buyers payment. In this case the local police will pick up the firearm from the dealer within a very short period of time. Then the firearm is returned to the original owner who reported it stolen. My best advice is that money, other than a good faith down payment, should not change hands until a background check has been approved.

Makes sense, EXCEPT where you state you would be responsible to track down a firearm if you release pending BGC ultimately comes back denied.

That would seem patently false & solely the responsibility of law enforcement.

 

[Jims Custom Stocks]

Then we circle back to the part about the gun is now registered to the buyer, should he decide to back out of the deal.

Then the seller keeps the down payment. Is there a question here?

 

[Lazyfaire]

I am an FFL in Oregon. Lots of opinions here. My understanding is that as soon as I take possession of the firearm for sale and initiate a background check, it's entered into my books and inventory. There is extra information required to be entered in Oregon for a private party transfer. I'm required to enter sellers name address, document ID number, etc. The exception to entering it into my books right away being if I am doing gun repair and return the gun to the owner the same business day. If a background check is denied, I still have the firearm in my inventory. The firearm can be returned to the original seller after a background check of the seller has been completed. Seller pays any fees associated with this process. If the seller regains possession of the firearm, then it is up to the buyer and the seller to come to an agreement about how much, if any, will be refunded to the buyer. If the seller took off with the money before the background check is completed, the FFL has no obligation to try to track them down. A transfer can also be "delayed" up to a few months while more information for the background check is researched. When it's delayed, a tentative date is given when the FFL can transfer the firearm without an official approval number. This happens quite frequently for people with common names where some other person with an similar name has been on a crime spree in another state (I've had this happen a number of times). In this case the FFL retains possession of the firearm for an unknown period of time and is also responsible for recovering the firearm if it has been transferred to the buyer and the background check is ultimately denied. I personally refuse to turn over a firearm without a completed background check associated with an approval number. This is the reason many FFL's don't want to do private party transfers or will charge a lot more than a normal transfer. There could also be a condition where the seller can't pass a background check and get their firearm back. Then the firearm belongs to the dealer who, if he is benevolent, could sell the firearm at a commission and give the original seller the proceeds. The firearm could also show up as stolen (I've had this happen) then the seller is pretty much obligated to return the buyers payment. In this case the local police will pick up the firearm from the dealer within a very short period of time. Then the firearm is returned to the original owner who reported it stolen. My best advice is that money, other than a good faith down payment, should not change hands until a background check has been approved.

Thank you. That was all very informative.

 

[Koda]

Then the seller keeps the down payment. Is there a question here?

Yes because now the seller has only a down payment on a gun thats now legally registered in another name.

 

[Jims Custom Stocks]

Yes because now the seller has only a down payment on a gun thats now legally registered in another name.

Then the dealer runs another background check transferring it back to the original seller. The good faith down payment needs to be enough to cover both of these transfers.

 

[Koda]

Then the dealer runs another background check transferring it back to the original seller. The good faith down payment needs to be enough to cover both of these transfers.

This makes sense and is probably the way to go.
Id probably still ask for the full price myself since theres no guarantee a seller wont get a denial themselves...