"Ghost" Guns outlawed in Oregon?

[Alexx1401]

The whole 'ghost gun' debate is a pathetic joke perpetrated on both sides. It takes a bit of skill, dexterity and patience to create one. There are more than a few finate tasks to complete a fully functional and issue free one. It's a 'warm fuzzy' thrown out to chum the waters!

I take you are talking about the glock clones? I never bothered to try them and glad I did not now that I hear the Poly lowers suck. The AR80%? That literally anyone who can read can or at least could, crank out and they worked fantastic with no tweaking. The AR was long known as the "erector set" gun for a good reason. Turning and 80% lower into a stripped lowers was so damn easy and they just work. When I first bought one to play with it was so easy my Wife who had NO machine shop experience wanted to try. So I let her crank one out and it too just worked. Of course we were playing with complete uppers that were well made. Bolt one on and they just ran.

 

[Yarome]

...and glad I did not now that I hear the Poly lowers suck.

They really don't though. It's just that the margin for human error is greater and you're dealing with some non standardized proprietary parts. They work exactly like a glock, but some of the components vary. Mainly how the rails and locking block are placed within the frame, but installed correctly the firearm operation is identical.

If anything... I would say components where first quite cheap. For a period of time some market segment prices surged as the scalper markets came into existence and expanded to take advantage of their growing popularity, but the "primary/standard" supply market really wasn't impacted and has remained pretty constant If anything, the pandemic and supply chair breakdown caused pricing to increase, but seems to have settled down. Of course, there was also a period of time where Glock stopped shipping parts to end user markets, too. I think the lower pricing in the last while though has been more a result of folks that bought into the scalper marketing, had buyer remorse.. or decided it was more than they wanted to tackle and starting offloading the components in a saturated market with insufficient demand.

The AR side I think really depends on your initial jig investment. There are cheapo options that give a lot of folks fits. For that matter... some of the first jig iterations required much more complex processes and produced less reliable and "rough" results. For someone that had an idea of what they were doing it wasn't much of an issue (kind of like the polymer frame types), but a lot of folks really had a rough time and reliability issues. If you invested in a high quality jig and use the proper tools then results are much more akin to your experience. Even then though there are plenty of folks that still find a way to bungle their build.

Let's face it. Investing a couple huny into a jig, more into a decent router, drill press, vise and utilize a myriad of hand tools in highly more likely to produce better results than trying to build a firearm from a 50 cent plastic jig and 2 of the cheapest drill bits they can find to include in the kits.

I think it kind of depends on who's buying them too though. No one without some level of mechanical experience is going to have the tools, the willingness to invest, or the inclination to tackle milling an AR lower. On the flip side... many of the polymer people are buying into them with the expectation that any idiot with an exacto knife and bit of sandpaper can produce a fully functional handgun in 30 minutes or less. Expectations not meeting reality... the product reputation suffers... when in actuality... failure is more a builder issue than a product issue.


Kinda gotten off topic and really here nor there in the "law" these days, but there seems to be some misconceptions about what they really are and why many will be reluctant to go the, "they are junk anyway so just replace them" option.

 

[Alexx1401]

They really don't though. It's just that the margin for human error is greater and you're dealing with some non standardized proprietary parts. They work exactly like a glock, but some of the components vary. Mainly how the rails and locking block are placed within the frame, but installed correctly the firearm operation is identical.

Well now I am confused. So those frames they make and sell for less than $50 do work? You had said they were real hit and miss. Since I had never played with these that's why I thought it was a good thing I never spent the money on one. Really does not matter for me now as we have not been able to buy them for a good while here and don't see that changing anytime soon the way people vote up here.

 

[Koda]

Well now I am confused. So those frames they make and sell for less than $50 do work? You had said they were real hit and miss. Since I had never played with these that's why I thought it was a good thing I never spent the money on one. Really does not matter for me now as we have not been able to buy them for a good while here and don't see that changing anytime soon the way people vote up here.

Yes, they work right out of the box. I bought one and want another (in colbalt color). They are plug and play with my slide assembly.

The serialized frames.

 

[Alexx1401]

Yes, they work right out of the box. I bought one and want another (in colbalt color). They are plug and play with my slide assembly.

The serialized frames.

Ok then it sounds like they would be a great solution to the OR owners of the ghost glocks if they wish to keep them and no one steps up to put the needed info on the frame they made. The price those were selling for with the parts kit already installed looked really good. A lot will of course depend on if someone starts to step up to offer doing the "ghost frames" to make them legal. Since there seems to be WILD ideas of how easy or hard this will be

 

[Koda]

Ok then it sounds like they would be a great solution to the OR owners of the ghost glocks if they wish to keep them and no one steps up to put the needed info on the frame they made. The price those were selling for with the parts kit already installed looked really good. A lot will of course depend on if someone starts to step up to offer doing the "ghost frames" to make them legal. Since there seems to be WILD ideas of how easy or hard this will be

Correct.
And at the prices they are selling them for I doubt an FFL could match to serialize.

Fwiw, those complete (serialized) frames use all factory P80 brand parts.

 

[Yarome]

Correct.
And at the prices they are selling them for I doubt an FFL could match to serialize.

Fwiw, those complete (serialized) frames use all factory P80 brand parts.

I dunno. Yeah... they are cheap, but they are also using cheap 3rd party knockoff parts and are still prone to mfg'ing variations in their rail system and MIM parts... just like their kit's. I guess if you have OEM parts in your existing frame you can just swap out the crap parts.

Even if you're breaking even you're still left exchanging a known reliable frame with an "unknown".

Maybe I'm just thinking too optimistically, but in this whole conversation I find it extremely difficult to believe that serializing an existing frame is going to cost more than the $110-ish it would cost to replace it. I find no evidence that would suggest it would cost anything near that much to even reasonably consider an out and out replacement.

Looking at states that are already doing it, it seems prices typically range between $30-$45 and is a simple "while you wait" process. Kalifederation is considerably higher, but there you're not just talking about engraving. You first pay your fees and apply for permission and to obtain the actual serial number. Of course, there is a couple 2 or 3 weeks processing time involved. THEN you go pay to actually have it applied. Quite a different process than what other states are doing.

 

[Yarome]

Well now I am confused. So those frames they make and sell for less than $50 do work? You had said they were real hit and miss.

What I meant by hit and miss is that there can be some slight variations or minor quality control issues, but they are easily identifiable and correctable, however, the main "hit and miss" component is the human factor and using only rudimentary and imprecise tools with the crappy bits and cheesy jig provided. IOW, maybe it's more accurate to say the results can be easily hit and miss.

If everything goes exactly as it should, the stamped rails don't have any burns and are at the exact angles they need to be, the parts all seat where they are supposed to and holes are precise to the 100th of an inch... it will run just fine right out of the box.

I mean... it is a "kit" and not a finished and pre fitted frame that only requires assembly, right. I'm not really aware of many firearm or reproduction "kit's" that don't require a bit of care and custom fettling. It's kind of the nature of the game.

Heck.. even as easy as AR lowers might be, there always some amount of tuning that needs to be done. A bolt catch that's a bit tight and needs a little sanding, triggers often need a little tuning, the takedown pin that fit a bit too tight, a gritty fire selector or detents that don't operate as smoothly as they should... etc, etc.

It can all impact the long term reliability and accuracy of your project.

 

[Koda]

"hit and miss" component is the human factor and using only rudimentary and imprecise tools with the crappy bits and cheesy jig provided.

Those are 100% frames and dont come with a jig

I mean... it is a "kit" and not a finished and pre fitted frame that only requires assembly, right. I'm not really aware of many firearm or reproduction "kit's" that don't require a bit of care and custom fettling. It's kind of the nature of the game.

Those are compled fully assembled frames. Just put your slide on and its ready.
I test fired mine and it ran fine.

 

[Yarome]

Those are 100% frames and dont come with a jig

Those are compled fully assembled frames. Just put your slide on and its ready.
I test fired mine and it ran fine.

I'm fully aware the ones you were talking about are complete serialized frames. The continuing conversation I was responding to with @Alexx1401 was in relation to the 80% PMF and unsterilized kits. Like the thread topic.

 

[Yarome]

Speaking of polymer80/Delta... and if some folks are considering going that route to comply with the new law... I should probably mention "buyer beware".

It seems they have been having some difficulties for awhile now with fulfilling orders and basically been stealing folks money. I'm one of them.

Back when the courts issued the full injunction and they were allowed to start selling full kits with jigs again, they offered a pre sale deal at a steep discount so I figured, "why not!". Give them a little business to help them fund the ongoing court case, right(?)

Supposedly orders where to ship within 4-6 weeks, but that was 11 months ago. They were giving a song and dance about inventory issues for 7 months or so, then the wider injunction was stayed... making it illegal for them to ship those products... so I ended up cancelling the order through customer service and requested a refund. They responded that they understood the reason and there was no issue. A refund would be issued immediately.

That was 4 months ago, no refund has been received, their customer service email has been bouncing back as undeliverable ever since and calling on the phone get's a message that customer service is unavailable via phone and refers you to their website.

I turned to my bank to intervene, which they have and have kept me updated. They contacted them 3 times over a 30 day period but to date have not gotten a response back. Nearly 2 months has gone by but I guess they are allowed another 30 days to respond before the bank takes any action.

I'm not alone and reports of the same have been running rampant. I know they are still doing business and actively continuing to advertise on social media platforms, but it appears they aren't fulfilling all of their orders, withholding any refunds and there is no way to make contact with their customer service department.

So ya know....

 

[PiratePast40]

Keep in mind that the federal law hasn't been completely stayed. If you have a firearm without a serial number, made after the 1968 cutoff date, and you take it to a gunsmith, they are required to comply with the serial number requirement.

 

[West-of-i5]

Theres no seller in serializing a gun.

Adding a serial number is a step in the manufacturing process. This is what Im asking about; Are only 07 licensed FFLs allowed to serialize?

80lower is doing a serialization thing specifically for hb2005. Apparently they'll ship you lower right back to your door too.

 

[arakboss]

80lower is doing a serialization thing specifically for hb2005. Apparently they'll ship you lower right back to your door too.

Link?

 

[West-of-i5]

Link?

Serialization of 80% Lower Receivers Oregon - 80% Lowers and More

Serialization Service of 80% Lower Receivers for Oregon Residents who currently possess an 80 Percent Lower or Unserialized Receiver.

80lowers.com

 

[Alexx1401]

Link?

That would be nice to see if they are doing that.

 

[arakboss]

That would be nice to see if they are doing that.

At $50 each I am not sure it will be worth it for most frames and receivers. But if you built an 80% 1911 frame or something costly it could be a great option. It's nice to see somebody stepping up to do it.


This is a service for Serializing 80% Lower Receivers due to Oregon passing HB 2005 into law provided that you already "Possess" the completed or unfinished Lower.
Select the number of Lowers that you will need to have Serialized, and then ship them to the following address.
ADR Tactical LLC
630 30th St, Ste 110
Springfield, OR 97478
Under the ATFs Gunsmithing Guidelines, we will engrave a specific Serial Number on the Lower Receiver. Only the Serial Number will be added, and we can ship directly back to you as the original owner as there is no need for a separate background check because these components would fall under ATFs Gunsmithing Guidelines.
You could also stop by our Shop in Springfield to have the engraving service done in person.
We are a licensed manufacturer and possess a valid FFL-07 SOT2 issued from ATF. It is perfectly legal to ship these Firearm parts to our facility.

 

[The Heretic]

That would be nice to see if they are doing that.

It would be even better if they did not keep a record of doing the service - but (someone please tell me it isn't so) - the law says they must keep a record of it?

Sorry if this has been asked and answered a bajillion times.

 

[arakboss]

It would be even better if they did not keep a record of doing the service - but (someone please tell me it isn't so) - the law says they must keep a record of it?

Sorry if this has been asked and answered a bajillion times.

I am sure it will be going in their book. The serial number will likely conform to this rule:

The required markings are: An individual serial number that begins with the first three and last five digits of the
FFL number, followed by a hyphen and then a unique serial number.

 

[The Heretic]

I am sure it will be going in their book. It will be hard for a trace to be done though, since the trace starts at the Manufacture.

That "trace" is for the ATF.

When (not if - WHEN) the state decides to confiscate, the OSP, not the ATF, will come knocking on the doors of the FFLs for those records.