considering a home defense rifle

[40calruler]

If you own a shotgun you should know its pattern and have practice. You keep talking about the spray and tight patterns but you are in a gun forum. Do you really think most here do not know what the shotgun they use shoots like? This is not a firearms training forum. I am very aware of the difference between a tight pattern of my buckshot and spraying 9 balls in a 3 foot radius.

 

[CoastRange57]

Look at the studies on the effects of buck shot and they will all point out that unless the pellets stirke in a tight cluster the effects are the same as individual handgun projectiles.

9 rounds of 00 buck every time you pull the trigger. I think you can lay it down a bit more effective than one round at a time. Not my choice of a house defense gun, but at 10 to 60 yards I will take it all day long.

 

[LogicBomb]

 

[BIGMEATY]

^^^that's awesome!^^^

 

[Dunerunner]

sounds great, thanks for helping me get back on my path for research.

1. Get an HD Shotgun. Remington 870, Benelli Nova, Benelli M4
2. You don't want to clear your house in the middle of the night with one of your senses shut off. (Hearing)
3. Ever see a Cop with hearing protection on?

 

[oli700]

OP get a suppressor if your worried about it that much, no fuss no fumbling.

Time for some basic review to frame the debate.

Cool !

Most unskilled people can fire 4 unaimed rounds a second from a modern semi auto, doesn't take a lot of work to get that person to be able to get those 4 rounds a second in the general vicinity of a torso sized target.

In a perfect world on paper at the climate controlled range……add target movement, you own movement, stress, low light and possibly being shot back at to that equation and I am not so sure it’s so easily taught

The average time to cover 10 yards for an adult male is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 seconds without obstructions.

keep that defensive weapon chambered, at all time no exceptions

Specifically on handgun bullets but also applies to individual buckshot pellets -

No way no how, 00 buck pellets are around 54 grains each…..almost any handgun projectile is going to out penetrate and out perform an individual buckshot pellet

Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.

The edge is with the well placed bullet, shoot the biggest bullet you can place well.

Properly selected rifle bullets do dramatically more damage to tissue because they come apart and cause multiple wound channels radiating out from the point of impact. A 9mm bullet is causing a .355 diameter wound channel whatever deep, a .45 is .45 whatever deep plus whatever expansion you can get.

You talking FMJ….a good expanding projectile will be quite a bit bigger than its original diameter. A rifle bullet will do more damage because they are generall traveling faster. Your statement is too broad, if you could shoot a 30 carbine and a 500 S&W Mag through an 18 inch barreld A1 then you would see the 500 would do much more damage than the 30 carbine. …..technically a 22lr is a rifle round

The 12" penetration standard was made for handgun bullets which behave fundamentally different from a rifle round. Take a ruler and start measuring angles on a torso, 12" starts looking like overkill with a reliable large permanent wound cavity.

The minimum FBI penetration standard was adopted because of quartering shots, large bodies, winter clothing or layers of tough clothing…..or any and all combinations of that, 12 inches is a worst case scenario cure all…..overkill on a 150 lbs runt with a tee.

Ballistics are only part of the rifle vs handgun for HD…..storage, size, maneuverability and confidence also weigh in to the debate. A well placed 9mm will be way better than a bad placed 308

 

[Lange22250]

You were the one saying a .355/.357 only makes said/same holes. What are you saying/implying? I said what I said. I said what you said is totally untrue. And I think I was being gracious, perhaps.. it seems the 125 grain .357 jacketed hollow point out of a 4" barrel is and was conceded as being the top stopper.. of critters much larger than two pounds
Maybe you should stick that .22-250 in the closet and plug a couple critters with a good handgun for the sake of your edification.

I'm not the one saying that pistol rounds only make wound channels the size of the maximum expanded diameter. The people who gathered and studied the empirical data on the subject did.
Please explain, physiologically, what causes a person to be immediately incapacitated if the CNS is not interrupted when the body is capable of physical action for up to 10-15 seconds without blood flow.
When the old "One Shot Stop" studies were reevaluated, by looking at the actual medical and pathology reports, they found that up to 90% of the one stop shots did not have a physical injury that would account for it. The best answer that has been born out by any empirical data is that the subject just decided to stop or give up either subconsciously or consciously.
I am willing to bet that no one on this board has seen enough shootings, studied the reports and looked at the medical records/pathologist reports to be able to make an informed opinion. That's why you look at studies, the data set, method of analysis, qualifications of the researchers and the conclusions.
Here's an analysis of why the old "One Shot Stop" tables are dangerous (starts on p.14) - <broken link removed>

Here's a hog, smaller than most adult male humans, hit with a .357. Notice that it is down but fully capable of attempted purposeful movement (trying to run away) for at least 5 seconds. That's a lot of time for a threat with a firearm to continue to shoot you.
Wild pig vs .357 - YouTube

 

[Certaindeaf]

I'm not the one saying that pistol rounds only make wound channels the size of the maximum expanded diameter. The people who gathered and studied the empirical data on the subject did.
Please explain, physiologically, what causes a person to be immediately incapacitated if the CNS is not interrupted when the body is capable of physical action for up to 10-15 seconds without blood flow.
When the old "One Shot Stop" studies were reevaluated, by looking at the actual medical and pathology reports, they found that up to 90% of the one stop shots did not have a physical injury that would account for it. The best answer that has been born out by any empirical data is that the subject just decided to stop or give up either subconsciously or consciously.
I am willing to bet that no one on this board has seen enough shootings, studied the reports and looked at the medical records/pathologist reports to be able to make an informed opinion. That's why you look at studies, the data set, method of analysis, qualifications of the researchers and the conclusions.
Here's an analysis of why the old "One Shot Stop" tables are dangerous (starts on p.14) - <broken link removed>

Here's a hog, smaller than most adult male humans, hit with a .357. Notice that it is down but fully capable of attempted purposeful movement (trying to run away) for at least 5 seconds. That's a lot of time for a threat with a firearm to continue to shoot you.
Wild pig vs .357 - YouTube

Well you certainly said it in post #77 and have continued saying it repeatedly. And about hog or anything hits, check out all of them critters hit repeatedly with .308 etc. that just shrugged it off.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Lange,
Now, and for some time now, you have been wingeing about degree.. for what reason I don&#8216;t know. We are not talking about degree. You were the one that stated that a .35 dia handgun would only make that diameter hole and I said that that was not the case at all. I understand that you might like red herring but dood, everyone knows that a 30-06 will do more damage than a normal handgun round.. that has nothing to do with your original, inane, posit.
How &#8216;bout that price of tea in China?

 

[Lange22250]

Well you certainly said it in post #77 and have continued saying it repeatedly. And about hog or anything hits, check out all of them critters hit repeatedly with .308 etc. that just shrugged it off.

RIF dude. I was quoting the conclusion of the study and summarized it, even included the link to the study. I can find no credible evidence in medical literature or other ballistic studies to make me doubt the conclusions so I will go with it.

And yep, unless you damage the CNS significantly or cause enough blood loss, which takes more time than you want to spend if you are defending your life, the threat is not neutralized if they continue to press the fight.

That's why it's important to have a good understanding of the terminal effects of the projectile you choose to use, at least a basic understanding of human anatomy and physiology and then develop a realistic expectation of what will happen when you actually engage a target.

If I have a choice, I'll go for the largest wounding potential that can be realistically employed to engage the threat as rapidly as possible with the best ability to continue to pound on it until it is no longer a threat. Contributing to the decision are factors which may reduce my liability as I engage that target.

An AR with well chosen ammo certainly qualifies - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaCpOt9xVy4 (Yes, a drill is a drill but if you are able to preform at even 80% of your best drill times under real stress it would still be very effective.)

 

[Lange22250]

Lange,
Now, and for some time now, you have been wingeing about degree.. for what reason I don&#8216;t know. We are not talking about degree. You were the one that stated that a .35 dia handgun would only make that diameter hole and I said that that was not the case at all. I understand that you might like red herring but dood, everyone knows that a 30-06 will do more damage than a normal handgun round.. that has nothing to do with your original, inane, posit.
How &#8216;bout that price of tea in China?

I'm not sure you are actually reading what I wrote because I have not used the word degree once. The premise of the discussion is the relative merit of a rifle over a pistol or shotgun in home defense and what type of rifle/ammunition would be appropriate if that was the choice.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Ok the racking may be true but there is one chambered and ready if they need to hear boom. If back is turned I would have shotgun pointed and give commands but that is my choice in caliber after looking at current ballistic reports and my house layout. If you own any gun you should not be worried about missing at 10' which is the average distance in the home not 10 yards. You should know it well enough that at that distance you are not needing to shoot 4 rounds a second again devastating your neighbors or kids.

I figure the chambered federal 3 inch 15 pellet 00 load will drop the first one in his tracks and the rest will run like he!!, but if not there's 5 or 7 more S & B 12 pellet 00s in the tube depending on which shottie I use. You can bet I will use the stock and aim

 

[Certaindeaf]

You didn't quote anything initially. But you sure do a fair hail mary on steroids. What you said was wrong.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Well you certainly said it in post #77 and have continued saying it repeatedly. And about hog or anything hits, check out all of them critters hit repeatedly with .308 etc. that just shrugged it off.

Handguns are weak. Usually even big hogs drop with a well placed shotgun slug. I got my handloaded slug data from an old magazine where the hunter was praising the load for dropping them in their tracks, literally. BTW there are almost no recorded instances of a man taking a full, well placed load of full house 12 GA buck and continuing aggressive attacks. They usually fall down on the spot and a few make it to the front lawn to expire, etc

Joe Horn in Texas, shooting after the "shoot to protect property" law took effect. Including neighbors, etc. The two perps were black/hispanic illegal aliens finally stopped from a serious crime spree, his neighbors were asian business owners who worked long hours and he was watching their house from next door. Anyway, background covered, back to the topic: listen to the shots of buck that dropped the 2 perps in their tracks

Texas Grand Jury issued a no charges decision. Found the best video. Good job Joe

 

[44mag2ndamend]

Handguns are weak. Usually even big hogs drop with a well placed shotgun slug. I got my handloaded slug data from an old magazine where the hunter was praising the load for dropping them in their tracks, literally. BTW there are almost no recorded instances of a man taking a full, well placed load of full house 12 GA buck and continuing aggressive attacks. They usually fall down on the spot and a few make it to the front lawn to expire, etc

Joe Horn in Texas, shooting after the "shoot to protect property" law took effect. Including neighbors, etc. The two perps were black/hispanic illegal aliens finally stopped from a serious crime spree, his neighbors were asian business owners who worked long hours and he was watching their house from next door. Anyway, background covered, back to the topic: listen to the shots of buck that dropped the 2 perps in their tracks

Texas Grand Jury issued a no charges decision. Found the best video. Good job Joe

bubblegum that Women, advising to have Mr. Horn charged because she is involved with Illegal Aliens.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I think on top of that sentiment that I share, she sees $$$$$$$ signs, maybe a civil lawsuit

 

[Certaindeaf]

Handguns are weak..

My dear sir, I didn't say handguns were weak nor strong. Nor do I like my ankles pissed on. I said what I said.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

My dear sir, I didn't say handguns were weak nor strong. Nor do I like my ankles pissed on. I said what I said.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder. I was trying to be friendly... and merely making an observation that you are free to disagree with

 

[Certaindeaf]

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder. I was trying to be friendly... and merely making an observation that you are free to disagree with

It goes both ways. I was trying to give simple input and ditto. You don't really have to preach to me, O chip shouldered one.

 

[40calruler]

I figure the chambered federal 3 inch 15 pellet 00 load will drop the first one in his tracks and the rest will run like he!!, but if not there's 5 or 7 more S & B 12 pellet 00s in the tube depending on which shottie I use. You can bet I will use the stock and aim

Yes using the stock and aiming if possible is what I would do and with my shotgun and the time I have spent with it I feel like I am competent enough to put it in a kill spot. I do have 6 more in there though so likely 2 shots will be crucial to be sure I am out of harms way. That is out of harms way to my comfort maybe not needed to stop the attack but needed for my comfort as one may be enough but I am going to be sure about that.