considering a home defense rifle

[Blitzkrieg]

You realize that there are, conservatively, about 40 different .223 bullets to choose from with a dramatic variation in the amount of penetration through wall materials.
There are plenty to chose from that will not be lethal after one interior wall.

Yes, choose wisely. Most of them match or exceed 12 GA buckshot in penetration

 

[40calruler]

Simply tell the guy the proper round to use in .223 or your comment has no value when there are so many different rounds.

 

[40calruler]

Yeah so the .223 AR thing is a hot point for me since guys like Blitz know what rounds to use but others have no clue and just load up with ball ammo and spray at a bad guy. I will always come off pissy and harsh for that reason. The over penetration of it is a huge issue and the reason why it was set in front of the council and some military members I am close to can not stand it being the round they use. If you know what you are doing then great but if you recommend it then please also recommend the brand and grain, where to get the correct ammo for the gun. Otherwise a new guy has dead neighbors. IT is just a hot issue for me personally and so I would hope that anyone saying they have knowledge of the proper ammo passes that knowledge on to the person they are recommending a high power rifle to.

 

[Flopsweat]

Simply tell the guy the proper round to use in .223 or your comment has no value when there are so many different rounds.

I did that in post # 35:

"A civilian 223/5.45 with a 55 or 60 grain bullet and an expanding tip will give sufficient penetration of the bad guy and at the same time penetrate drywall less than a typical 9mm. "

 

[simon99]

Why do these threads always decompose into caliber wars?

Know your weapon, know your backstop, know your limitations and abilities.....end of story regardless if your using a BB gun or a 20mm cannon.

 

[Flopsweat]

Sounds like to make such a decisions you need to take some security inventory.

1. Lay out of the house and where access to firearms are.

2. Will the firearm be moved in the house with ease and not hung up on coat racks, book shelves etc.

3. What is your house made of and where? If you live in an apartment there may be danger of penetration into a neighbors house and that changes all the rules if you use a firearm and it injured a neighbor.

4. Is the firearm you choose easy to use, do you know it well can you load it in the dark, does it have a safety?

Lots to think about, I use a 20ga myself not a super high velocity but within the confines of a house its more then you need I put two #4's then two slugs .
My own thoughts is its allot like Conceal carry if you have issues like I listed carrying you might want to think about what you use. If you want to avoid jail time your best bet is control of your firearm, if an intruder comes, night, day inside or outside the firearm you pick needs to be controlled by you near flawlessly.

Excellent point. Strategy is another consideration for gun choice. If you're a barricade and wait kind of person, a long gun might not be a bad idea. If you want to actively seek out the bad guy, a short barrel and the ability to shoot one-handed may seem a better choice. If you have kids to protect, a combination of the two may catch your fancy.

And if you have time, amplified hearing protection could give you an advantage and save some hearing. Just keep in mind all of those people shot in their beds each year while reaching for their ear-pro. Oh wait, none?

 

[BIGMEATY]

a decent read, although every single point can be debated, just like anything else...

Self Defense inside the Home: Avoiding over-penetration - Guns.com

 

[oli700]

Lange22250, your post was refreshing for me to read

It's as easy to miss with a shotgun as a rifle at "at home" distances

So many unknowing folks believe a shotgun is a death ray that is incapable of missing….those people obviously don’t have enough time behind a shotgun

95% of "Home Defense Experts" got together and pulled the "fact" that racking a shotgun "is the best deterrent" out of there collective a$$es after reviewing the extensive non existent studies on the matter.

Lol, the belief running off a hardened armed robber or career criminal with the sound of a racking pump shotgun is one the classics. It will reveal your position and tell them exactly what they face at best
If a person is serious about defense of lives, that person’s weapon of choice is chambered before the threat presents itself.

I have been told that #6 is about as big as you can go without having over penetration issues.

Probably true, however we all know it is an unreliable fight stopper, might work, might not…..

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Simply tell the guy the proper round to use in .223 or your comment has no value when there are so many different rounds.

And how many people reading this thread understand what round does what?

Racking to "scare" them is a farce. The first thing they should hear is BOOM

 

[Certaindeaf]

Well I'm glad that's all settled. I think we made Rube Goldberg proud.

 

[Lange22250]

Time for some basic review to frame the debate.

Most unskilled people can fire 4 unaimed rounds a second from a modern semi auto, doesn't take a lot of work to get that person to be able to get those 4 rounds a second in the general vicinity of a torso sized target.
The average time to cover 10 yards for an adult male is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 seconds without obstructions.

Specifically on handgun bullets but also applies to individual buckshot pellets -

"Physiologically. no caliber of bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or the sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage is common place on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration of less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed"42,43. Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of the hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.44"

Jul 14, 1989 - Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

<broken link removed>

A good summation of the study is that A) handgun (and buckshot) projectiles only damage tissue which they directly impact B) unless an individual decides, for whatever reason, to stop an attack the only way to incapacitate them is a central nervous system hit and damage or blood loss which can take up to 15 seconds.

10-15 seconds is a lot of time for an attacker to do bad things to you. The only reason for me, or anyone else to shoot some one under the law is to stop an immediate threat to the life/health of myself or another. If I'm shooting I needed them stopped yesterday, not the amount of time to takes bleed out.

I can't simply hope that they will cease and desist just because I hit them. I can put a couple of rounds in the chest to see if it will work, or maybe they take a spine hit, because the chest it the easiest target area. Then it's time to transition to a head shot. Much easier to do with a long gun. That should be .70 seconds to make the decision to fire and the first hit on target (from an off target ready), then .1-.15 for each additional shot in the same area, then .2-.30 for the transition to the head and the much more difficult shots on a smaller target that is moving more because it's on the end of a long body. Optimistically that's around a second and a half. Enough time for just about anyone to fire 6 rounds in my general direction or close on me from 7-10 yards.

Properly selected rifle bullets do dramatically more damage to tissue because they come apart and cause multiple wound channels radiating out from the point of impact. A 9mm bullet is causing a .355 diameter wound channel whatever deep, a .45 is .45 whatever deep plus whatever expansion you can get. A good rifle bullet can cause a wound channel about the size somewhere between your wrist and fist about the depth of a relaxed closed hand to between the wrist and 3 to 4 inches deep after as little as 1.5 inches of initial penetration.
Crappy website but does have most of federal's rounds in one spot for comparison - Democratic Stupidity Made Simple: Sandy Hooks "Hoax" Massacre

As a thought exercise take a relaxed fist and compare that to a human torso from various angles and the potential damage is easier to visualize. Then take dowels the size of expanded bullets and do the same thing.

Now understanding the times involved and the relative damage that a handgun round or individual buckshot pellets do compared to a properly selected .223 round which makes more sense?

Buckshot can be devastating IF the pattern is tight and the pellets hit in close proximity. That's why all the LE flight control buck is on the market. The tight group eliminates to the theoretical advantage of a huge pattern "so you don't have to aim". Big pattern means a bunch of small wound channels and you are back to hoping they give up or waiting until the bleed out to unconsciousness.

So say you stay with the big pattern to make a head shot easier. That means that you are also sending a bunch of pellets flying through the walls in your house and potentially the neighbor. You own each and every one of them morally and legally.

Refer again to the above photos of .223 in ballistic gel and look at the retained weights of the different projectiles. The T223E had a 9% weight retention, it comes apart really well when it hit's something. The less mass a projectile has the faster it looses velocity and less penetration. That equals less walls it will travel through. Understanding those principals, choosing the appropriate bullet shold not be too hard.

I personally feel OK about using 40 grain varmint hollow points to further reduce the risks. The 12" penetration standard was made for handgun bullets which behave fundamentally different from a rifle round. Take a ruler and start measuring angles on a torso, 12" starts looking like overkill with a reliable large permanent wound cavity.


Then there is the whole "reinventing the wheel" thing. If an agency put a lot of time and money into testing, the tests look valid and they show an advantage going with the rifle, why discount it?

 

[Certaindeaf]

..A 9mm bullet is causing a .355 diameter wound channel whatever deep..

I've seen 9mm/.357 magnum disappear varmints and bug the eyeballs out of a jackrabbit with a body hit. just so you know

 

[dwaineshort]

For me what made my decision to switch to my Tavor from my xdm 4.25 in 40sw was after doing some simulated stress shooting drills.
I'm a good shot with my handgun, but 50x better with my rifle under simulated stress.
I have kids, and neighbors. Wanted to make sure I'm using the tool I'm the best with.

What it really comes down to is what your most comfortable with.
I like with my bullpup I can get just as close to cover as I can with a handgun, and have the accuracy as a rifle.

 

[40calruler]

This whole thread was about sound. Concern about hurting ears not breaking walls. A .223 is a damn loud sound as is a shotgun, pistol anything and there is no way to avoid that in the mere seconds you may have. I think that when someone posts current ballistic tests it is a good idea to check them out prior to quoting 1980s crap that has no value with the whole different world of how defensive ammo including buckshot is made NOW. BOX of thruth is right up there and current. It is a lot better info than digging out a gun magazine from 1987.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Chicken little never went to a rock concert in his whole life. and the sky still fell

 

[Lange22250]

I've seen 9mm/.357 magnum disappear varmints and bug the eyeballs out of a jackrabbit with a body hit. just so you know

So you feel that it is valid to compare the effects of a bullet on a 1-15 pound animal to the effects it will have on a 140-250 pound animal?
The people who came to the above conclusions did so after actually looking at wounds to hundreds of people and large animals and reading the reports from the shooting it's self. They also had extensive education in human anatomy and physiology with real world experience treating gunshot wounds as well as examining them in deceased individuals.

 

[40calruler]

And how many people reading this thread understand what round does what?

Racking to "scare" them is a farce. The first thing they should hear is BOOM

Ok the racking may be true but there is one chambered and ready if they need to hear boom. If back is turned I would have shotgun pointed and give commands but that is my choice in caliber after looking at current ballistic reports and my house layout. If you own any gun you should not be worried about missing at 10' which is the average distance in the home not 10 yards. You should know it well enough that at that distance you are not needing to shoot 4 rounds a second again devastating your neighbors or kids.

 

[Lange22250]

This whole thread was about sound. Concern about hurting ears not breaking walls. A .223 is a damn loud sound as is a shotgun, pistol anything and there is no way to avoid that in the mere seconds you may have. I think that when someone posts current ballistic tests it is a good idea to check them out prior to quoting 1980s crap that has no value with the whole different world of how defensive ammo including buckshot is made NOW. BOX of thruth is right up there and current. It is a lot better info than digging out a gun magazine from 1987.

the study is not out of some gun rag. It's the FBI study that is still considered the standard for base understanding of handgun wounding effects because it was able to draw on a huge amount of data in the form of medical records and pathology reports along with the reports from the shooting by the participants. If anything, good current studies have done nothing more than to clarify and prove it's conclusions.

Look at the studies on the effects of buck shot and they will all point out that unless the pellets stirke in a tight cluster the effects are the same as individual handgun projectiles.

 

[BIGMEATY]

The Box O' Truth #14 - Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls - Page 1

 

[Certaindeaf]

So you feel that it is valid to compare the effects of a bullet on a 1-15 pound animal to the effects it will have on a 140-250 pound animal?
The people who came to the above conclusions did so after actually looking at wounds to hundreds of people and large animals and reading the reports from the shooting it's self. They also had extensive education in human anatomy and physiology with real world experience treating gunshot wounds as well as examining them in deceased individuals.

You were the one saying a .355/.357 only makes said/same holes. What are you saying/implying? I said what I said. I said what you said is totally untrue. And I think I was being gracious, perhaps.. it seems the 125 grain .357 jacketed hollow point out of a 4" barrel is and was conceded as being the top stopper.. of critters much larger than two pounds
Maybe you should stick that .22-250 in the closet and plug a couple critters with a good handgun for the sake of your edification.