Oregon CHL holder killed by campus police

[SUPER X]

You perceive in typical calm retrospect, in the heat of the fracas everyone's senses are working perfectly, the cops yelling in perfect unison [not normally] over the din of traffic of the bus stop area, vehicle noise, etc; and the gentleman, who to his surprised dismay has suddenly found himself losing his balance, finds his firearm has fallen out of its holster and is lying on the ground in the middle of an altercation between others has focused on only one thought - get may firearm back in hand to keep altercation members from getting hold of it.

LEs believe all team members have to scream commands and those being screamed at can understand and heed those commands. Watch children at play react then have a group of adults hollar the same command at them, see what chaos ensues.

Alot of older people can't hear clearly with back ground noise present.

 

[mkwerx]

Aaaahhh yes... the old "British cops don't even carry guns" argument... haven't heard that one in awhile.
I sort of miss saying, "Yeah, we have unarmed cops here too... we call em Meter Maids".

I'm not implying that you were making that argument, just citing it as more AltLeft nutjobbery.

Lots of wackaloons wish we had British Bobbies for police. It is altleft nut jobbery at its "finest"

 

[etrain16]

Not sure who the blame should fall on here, I am of the mind that both sides share some responsibility for this tragedy, and unfortunately, some poor decisions, I think, on both sides, led to this.

Still, as others have already stated, I will reiterate my general rules for CHL/CPL holders - agree or disagree, these are my rules:

1. Stay away from areas or situations that are likely to be problematic - for example, I wouldn't walk alone in downtown PDX at 2am
2. Walk away from fights, riots, etc. If I'm carrying, this is the last place I want to be, way too many chances something can go wrong.
3. Don't drink and carry - pretty darn straightforward one there.
4. Lose the attitude - when I carry, I'm probably at my most calm. I don't start sh!t with people normally anyway, but even less so when I'm carrying. Calm and cool at all times. Guns and bad-azz attitudes don't mix well.
5. It's not my job to protect people other than myself and my family. Myself and my family come first in any bad situation. I will protect and remove them from such a situation as much as within my ability. This doesn't mean I wouldn't step in and help someone that needed it, but that is secondary to my primary concern.
6. If police give me a command, I definitely follow it, especially if I'm armed. They may be 100% in the wrong, but there are more of them, they may be jacked up and they are armed. Now is not the time to argue who is right and who is wrong. That's for the lawyers to work out later.
7. Keep my weapon concealed and secured/retained in a proper holster at all times. That's twice in the last month we've seen stories about poorly holstered guns falling on the ground. With the quality holsters available today, there really is no excuse for this.

I definitely saw some unfortunate mistakes made in this situation. Honestly, I think if the above rules would have been followed, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Whether the police were trigger-happy is now a matter for the courts to decide as I'm certain a civil suit is soon to follow.

My condolences to the family of this man, who I truly believe had good intent, just lousy timing and decision making with the wrong crowd and wrong officers present.

 

[taroman]

Nothing good ever happens after midnight.
Bars, booze and guns never mix well.

 

[U8395279]

So, a guy with a CHL tries to help break up a fight, loses his balance and his gun falls out of his holster. Campus police shoot him dead when he tries to pick up his gun.

Talk about a blatant overreaction by the PSU campus police.

Police: Man dies in shooting involving PSU officer

Man whose gun fell out of holster shot dead by Portland State police: Witness

I really don't get this. Why are the PSU campus police responding to a bar fight that is clearly off campus? It would seem clearly out of their jurisdiction.

I've never felt that colleges need an armed force of actual law enforcement officers. Colleges rarely have major crimes. And it is such a small jurisdiction, with such a low crime rate, that the officers are probably bored out of their minds for most of the time. Likewise, the police force itself is tiny. I think that such a small department is going to struggle with keeping up with modern police standards. A small department makes it much easier for slipshod, unprofessional practices to flourish.

The whole concept of having a college police force in the first place, is in itself, partially to blame for this tragedy. At least that is my opinion, on this matter.

.

 

[U8395279]

Nothing good ever happens after midnight.
Bars, booze and guns never mix well.

I generally make it a point to stay home after 10pm. Occasionally I might be out as late as 11pm, but absolutely never past that.

And there are just certain areas of town, and certain places, where crime is more prevalent. Certainly bars are a hotspot. As are nightclubs that feature naked women.

Simply stay away from areas where crime typically occurs, and don't stay out late at night, and just doing those two things will go a long way in helping a person to avoid crime.

Alcohol is definitely one of Satan's friends.



.

 

[SUPER X]

I generally make it a point to stay home after 10pm. Occasionally I might be out as late as 11pm, but absolutely never past that.

And there are just certain areas of town, and certain places, where crime is more prevalent. Certainly bars are a hotspot. As are nightclubs that feature naked women.

Simply stay away from areas where crime typically occurs, and don't stay out late at night, and just doing those two things will go a long way in helping a person to avoid crime.

Alcohol is definitely one of Satan's friends.


View attachment 474604
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I don't step foot in a bar unless it's during the day for a killer hamburger .If a person wants trouble it's the first place to find it.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

The two groups (CHL and his friend with a blue shirt vs 3 or 4 guys with braided hair including the video taker and red shirt the aggressor) were outside a bar off campus when the argument started. At the start, red shirt gets in blue shirt's face. Blue is ready to fight, but CHL restrains him and they retreat a block on to the PSU campus. Group with the braided hair follows. Red shirt is the aggressor. Cops are there standing around now. Everyone clearly sees the pistol on CHL's how. As blue shirt picks up something Correction red shirts cell phone off the ground and spikes it, red shirt slips behind him and attempts a rear choke hold. CHL steps in to protect his friend, everyone goes to the ground gun falls out, CHL starts to get up (not sure what sort of hold he had on his pistol) cops shoot while the CHL is still getting up and has his back to them.

Both red and blue shirts should have spent the night in jail for their continued aggression.

 

[4whatitsworth]

I really don't get this. Why are the PSU campus police responding to a bar fight that is clearly off campus? It would seem clearly out of their jurisdiction.

I've never felt that colleges need an armed force of actual law enforcement officers. Colleges rarely have major crimes. And it is such a small jurisdiction, with such a low crime rate, that the officers are probably bored out of their minds for most of the time. Likewise, the police force itself is tiny. I think that such a small department is going to struggle with keeping up with modern police standards. A small department makes it much easier for slipshod, unprofessional practices to flourish.

The whole concept of having a college police force in the first place, is in itself, partially to blame for this tragedy. At least that is my opinion, on this matter.

.

Right here is where those who believe in the 2-A loose the knaves out there who have no education or experience in this issue. They have seen the turmoil, just a few months ago, after the Parkland school shooting. They see those here argue that the children are left undefended, guns aren't allowed, we need to protect our children with armed defenders. Then something like this happens and we hear, "Oh my goodness we can't have armed defenders in schools because something might go wrong." On top of this you argue that it is a low crime, safe area so who needs guns? Now accept for the purposes of this discussion I am a turnip that just fell of the proverbial truck and I hear your argument, and the one that comes from the left that says, "Take away all the guns and we will be safe, no one needs guns we have our loving government to defend us." In one brief comment you just argued the other side's view, we can't have guns in school no matter what and you don't need them anyway because you haven't proved to me that you are unsafe and need them. You can't have it both ways.

 

[hatchj]

I havent seen if theres a video, but i work with a guy that knew the person who was shot. The account he was given is that the gun and holster came out, he picked it up moving someone yelled gun and he emdes getting shot in the back.

I question someone getting shot in the back if thats true.

I personally wouldnt have a gin on me if i was in a bar. Especially in oregon with laws and such. I do know that psu students arent comfortable or feel safe near psu security. And that didnt stem from this

 

[Raidingtime]

Look at it this way. You're a cop and a bunch of drunk bubblegums are brawling, suddenly you see a gun on the ground not knowing who's it is. Said gun is picked up by one of these people fighting, and the cop doesn't know who's gun it is necessarily. I know I wouldn't wait to find out what he does with it, nor would I expect an officer to. He shouldn't have picked that gun up with cops around. It was just a bad move. And no one in their right mind is gonna wait to find out if a drunk dude with a loaded gun is going to start firing.

facts:
1. The guy was a navy veteran who had a ccw legally
2. Video shows him being a Good Samaritan
3. The video shows him dropping his gun accidentally while police stand around doing nothing. He turns his back, without grabbing the gun, the police see the gun and shoot him multiple times in the back without giving him a chance to put his arms up
4. It's legal to be at a bar past 2200....
5. In no way did the guy ever meet the deadly force triangle: capability (did not have gun ready to use), opprotunity (his back was turned and did not have control of firearm), and intent (the guy was breaking up a fight).

Talk of "he shouldn't have been out late" or "that's what you get for intervening" is even more stupid as blaming a woman for getting raped because she went to a party or had a skirt on.

This man has done his country more service than 99% of people in this country and was a father and a contributing member to society.
shame on campus police for being trigger happy and not deploying any sense in de escalation and shame on anyone that thinks that he was in the wrong in any way.

 

[Raidingtime]

Believe it. I feel no shame.

Correction: I believe it but am disturbed by it and it does influence my vote and how I interact. My hope here is that there are less people with your demeanor that are interested in public safety and service.

 

[Alexx1401]

It just comes down to two houses of thought. You're either responsible for your choices, or it's someone else's fault. I'm of and always will be of the latter house.

This is the big sticking point here. For decades now people have made personal responsibility a nasty word. No one is ever at fault for what they do. It HAS to be someone else who is at fault for every stupid choice people make. Here is a great example. You have a few people who are going to blatantly ignore the really stupid choices this guy made that got him killed. Since all these stupid choices can't possibly his fault a few are going to blame the cops. No amount of facts are going to be allowed to penetrate. It's a waste of time to try. This is a great lesson in what to not do if you choose to carry though.

 

[combatmedic]

Bad judgement by all. He was most likely drinking since it was 1:30 am and he and his friends were interviewed by KATU news at a bar earlier that day.
PSU officers were standing within arms length letting the assualt happen. Also not noticing the Open carry on the one trying to de-escalate the assualt ( CHL has nothing to do with this). If you and your family were being assualted and you drop your gun, would you stop and hope the cop (who is doing nothing) shots before the bad guy grabs your gun? Happens fast. Next time any of you go to the range have your buddy try to pick up a pen off the floor faster then you can say "drop the gun, drop the gun, bang, bang". The whole thing makes me sad.

 

[jvbutter]

Look at it this way. You're a cop and a bunch of drunk bubblegums are brawling, suddenly you see a gun on the ground not knowing who's it is. Said gun is picked up by one of these people fighting, and the cop doesn't know who's gun it is necessarily. I know I wouldn't wait to find out what he does with it, nor would I expect an officer to. He shouldn't have picked that gun up with cops around. It was just a bad move. And no one in their right mind is gonna wait to find out if a drunk dude with a loaded gun is going to start firing.

Agreed, again, I ask when will people start listening to authority? So many people i see get shot because they don't listen to the police.

I feel for the cop, I think that could have gone another direction if one of the fighters, picked it up and starting firing.

 

[Cavedweller]

One of the local stations actually interviewed the deceased man at the bar several hours (like 9 hours) before the incident ensued.
I noticed his T-shirt said in very large letters - I AM THE WEAPON
A terrible tragedy underscored by bad choices.

What was he interviewed about and why was TV there? Had he been drinking for 9 hours when it happened?

 

[pdxwarren]

In talking about this incident with a friend Sunday morning, I was reminded of the guy who was shooting in a competition up in Washington last year who lost control of his handgun and dropped it as he was moving through a shooting sequence. Without thinking about it, he made an effort to catch the gun as it fell. Of course, if you know this story, he ended up catching it by the trigger and shot himself point blank in the chest. He died at the scene.

When I first heard that story, I realized that I had never considered what might happen if I ever did drop my weapon accidentally. In retrospect, it seems like basic common sense to NOT attempt to catch the weapon, but if you've not encountered that situation, or had it explained to you, you might try.

The incident at PSU was in many ways similar: If you've watched the video, this guy did not have his gun secured. You can see it moving all over the place as he gets jostled, until it finally falls out of his pocket or holster and onto the ground. Further, concealed carry means concealed carry. I should never have been able to see the guys weapon, period. Then, the weapon falls out of the holster or pocket. The gun should have been secure enough, however it was carried, that it was next to impossible to fall out. But it did.

Don't know about you, but they made my class jump up and down to prove that our weapons couldn't come loose out of the holster.

So, the final mistake was, of course, to reach for the gun and pick it up. He was probably, in that moment, just thinking about getting the gun away from everyone else, but the appearance was of grabbing a gun up off the floor.

I feel badly that someone died, but I do not fault PSU police.

Probably not a good idea to take a handgun into a bar, whether you are drinking or not. Probably not a good idea to try to break up a fight if it means that you can't protect or control your firearm during the process. Probably not a good idea to carry a firearm loose in your pocket, while wearing baggy shorts. Probably not a good idea to reach for a gun on the ground, yours or not, during a scuffle.

Tough lessons to learn, all the way around. If you are going to carry, you better be thinking about things like this. I hear too many people talking about what they would do if they encountered "a bad guy" doing this or that. Law enforcement does NOT recognize YOU as someone trying to help them. Concealed carry does not mean that you have been deputized and are now a member of the law enforcement team. If law enforcement sees someone with a gun, they will respond as they were trained. Concealed weapons permit or not.

 

[Defense Minister]

I can see both sides of this, and based on what I know I think both were wrong to some degree. Mr. Washington clearly made a series of poor judgements which have already been articulated by others here, but I also believe the officers may have been a bit hasty in their decision-making process. In their defense, they have a tough job and making perfect split-second decisions is difficult at best.

Sad story that could easily have been avoided. The only good coming from this is the lessons for the rest of us, so learn them.

R.I.P. Jason Washington

 

[justcuz]

Agreed, again, I ask when will people start listening to authority? So many people i see get shot because they don't listen to the police.

I feel for the cop, I think that could have gone another direction if one of the fighters, picked it up and starting firing.

Papers please we are here to confiscate your firearms?

LE agents are trained from a perspective if they hollar...citizens HAVE TO OBEY.

When they hollar in mass seems someone dies you would think by now the LE game book,would be changed since hollaring in mass doesn't seem to be working out too well for those being hollared at, now does it?

as previously stated, try focusing your auditory sense when adrenaline is pumping, crowd noise is going on, and two, three, or five people,are screaming at you what sounds like gibberish.

Please let me know how that works out for you!

The questions raised about why are campus LEs responding, is of paramount importance, yes,they went thru BLET but, what real time experience have they had to react to this kinda scenario?

Oh wait, they also have QI so it doesn't matter now does it?

 

[RumpleForeskin]

I'm baffled that so many assume just because he's license that he was even attempting to CC.... in the heart of Multnomah county nonetheless

I cant think of a better scenario to show the importance of quality holster for carrying. A cheap holster could get you killed.

Might have actually gotten himself killed via Clipdraw