Oregon CHL holder killed by campus police

[Asp]

It just comes down to two houses of thought. You're either responsible for your choices, or it's someone else's fault. I'm of and always will be of the latter house.

Former: you're responsible for your choices/faults
Latter: it's someone else's fault

What?
Throughout this thread you blamed the victim of the shooting, which I'm fine with, but wouldn't you be the former supporting the victim being accountable for his actions leading him to be shot, rather than the latter and blaming the shooter?

 

[Kristina]

No. People make choices and their responsible for the consequences of those choices. It's a damn shame, but blaming the cops for reacting to a situation they did not create or actively escalate is just nonsense.

Of course people are responsible for the outcome of their choices. But this man was not acting alone in a vacuum, there were other people there who also made choices, people who I hold to a higher standard because they are law enforcement. I expect them to have training that helps prevent knee-jerk reactions in situations like this. I don't feel like that was the case in this scenario and a man who was presumably trying to "do the right thing" is dead because of it.

 

[Kristina]

We just differ in opinion. And that's ok.

I'm cool with that too. Life would be pretty boring if we all agreed on everything all the time .

 

[Asp]

Depends who you ask grammatically the latter can mean the first mentioned in a senate certain structure instead of the last. It's just a syntax debate which I don't really care for, and obviously my opinion is clear that I side with personally responsibility for choices.

I get what you're saying now. I just can't understand why you wouldn't just say you refuse to explain your train of thought from the onset of my questions.

 

[edzz]

Nothing to see here, veteran trying to protect a comrade executed by cop.

Well I have great respect for most police I have little respect for some of the tactical training courses I have attended. Too much emphases on identifying and neutralizing a threat and little training on how to recognize when deadly force is truly warranted.

 

[Jonnyuma]

I have a particular bar that I like to go to... I hit it 2 to 4 times a month. I go there usually after "getting some stuff done", running around, errands, whatever... I'm always armed and I ALWAYS leave my piece in my car. I say "car" advisedly because if I think I might end up there, I don't take my truck because it doesn't have a trunk or other secure storage.
I don't get drunk, but (apparently) misunderstandings DO happen and I'm not interested in getting carted off to jail or killed by a cop who's had it drilled into his/her head that priority #1 is his/her safety at all cost.
Officer safety IS a priority, but not at the expense of public safety, imo.
I lay the blame for this latest wave of "paranoia" and nervous cops directly at the feet of leftist fascist "movements" like #BLM. The last time we saw this was the 90s when gang-culture and drive-by shootings were all the rage... I remember voting for bond measures in AZ because I wanted TWO cops in every car. I didn't like the thought of being a CCer and getting pulled over by a nervous police officer. They're usually more confident and less likely to strike if they have immediate backup on hand.
This guy seems to have made some poor decisions, but he didn't deserve to be shot to death.
Be smart.
Make your offense defensive.
Don't give anyone an excuse to shoot you down.
Stay out of Portland.

 

[Asp]

Just don't really care to explain myself to the extent you desire. Sorry, you don't always get what you want.

As long as I have a right to say I disagree/agree and am confused with your assessment, and you promote my right, as I would yours, to agree or disagree, I think that's all I ever wanted from it.

 

[MDL]

Such a sad situation. How would you like to be the guy in blue shirt knowing you caused a guy to get killed. This occurred outside on the sidewalk. Was he in a bar with a firearm? I realize that CHL in OR allows you a firearm in bars and WA doesn't. We will have to see how this plays out...

 

[Jabba]

I think this situation comes down to does someone simply holding a gun represent an imminent lethal threat that needs to be eliminated? Shouting drop the gun and shooting one second later is not enough time to determine intent. He may have not even heard it, the scene was very chaotic. I think simply picking up a gun does not demonstrate clear intent to harm or represent an imminent threat, the cops had plenty of time to consider other options and fully asses the situation. I think there should be a blanket rule that people holding a gun don't get shot unless they point it at someone.

 

[powermad]

This whole good guy/bad guy with a gun thing is tiresome, and in this case irrelevant. The man in question made a series of really foolish choices in tandem with being a concealed carrier. It's just that simple for me.

Whether he deserved it or not fails to matter after a certain point. He had many chances to back out of the situation and allow for a far less deadly outcome to occur, but he kept going against basic common sense when carrying.

I have no hate for the officer or security, they had to deal with a rough situation and the man who died forced their hand.

Agreed
Drinking or not, at a bar or not.
Getting into a scrap is a bad idea.
Getting into a scrap with cops around, drop your gun and go to grab it?
It's most likely not going to end well.

At that point I wouldn't have to think about what to do, treat that sucker like it's radioactive.

This isn't a what if debate though.
Choices were made and the outcome was inevitable. In the end that's all that really matters.

Don't want to be shot 14 times by the cops? Don't put yourself in that guys situation.

 

[JRuby]

Agreed
Drinking or not, at a bar or not.
Getting into a scrap is a bad idea.
Getting into a scrap with cops around, drop your gun and go to grab it?
It's most likely not going to end well.

At that point I wouldn't have to think about what to do, treat that sucker like it's radioactive.

This isn't a what if debate though.
Choices were made and the outcome was inevitable. In the end that's all that really matters.

Don't want to be shot 14 times by the cops? Don't put yourself in that guys situation.

Basically what I hear you saying is that if the police shoot someone they deserved it by being in the vicinity of the police. I think not. Simply having a gun in your hand should not equate to a death sentence. The police need to grow a pair.

 

[powermad]

Nothing to do with "deserving"
It's a simple matter of that's what will most likely be the outcome .

 

[JRuby]

I gotta say if this is what you truly hear you must be trying very hard to ignore some basic logic, and facts of the situation. Not to mention a naïveté of how dangerous a live weapon is in the hands of someone not in full control of it.

People shoot others and themselves all the time by not responsibly handling their firearms on ranges. People die from simple mistakes and not being in control of their weapon. This is fact.

You seem to forget my right to have a weapon in the first place. I don't have to ask for permission to have a weapon from a police officer. The police should not have open season on civilians because they have a weapon. If the weapon was being used in a crime I could understand the concern. Again the police need to grow a pair. The first response to seeing a weapon is not to kill someone. In my opinion the police screwed up - let's see what the jury says.

 

[JRuby]

Your right ends when you put others in danger. If you can't even keep your gun on your person, and are fumbling to pick it up, you're rights no longer matter to me. You're Putting other people's life in danger by being an irresponsible carrier. Don't be a fool with your weapon and you won't get shot. Pretty simple rule to live by. Having the right doesn't mean you're free of the personal responsibility. If anything it assumes a greater responsibility.

I was going to phrase this differently but I will play nice. Respectfully your opinion does not outweigh mine or others rights. I once dropped a revolver a model 36 if police were around should I have been shot because I made a mistake. Yeah i actually was embarrassed and quickly reupholstered it.

Police are only too willing to use their weapons as a first line of defense.

 

[JRuby]

Maybe, depends if they told you not to pick it up and you decided to do it anyways. A dumb choice by any standards. No one can read your mind or know you're a legal carrier, they just know you dropped your gun and obviously aren't being responsible with it.

So you support shoot first ask questions later. Are you a Leo? You act like the police have more rights than civilians.i think police should be held to a higher standard apparently you dont.

 

[oneharmonic]

So you support shoot first ask questions later. Are you a Leo? You act like the police have more rights than civilians.i think police should be held to a higher standard apparently you dont.

Even if he's not a LEO, he's in the minority here, which is refreshing to see.

My right to life doesn't stop because my gun fell out of my holster and I did the first thing that comes naturally when I drop anything: I reach to pick it up.

This Navy vet and father had a few beers and was being a good samaritan in a conflict. What action did he take up to that point to show that when he was reaching for a gun he very clearly mistakenly dropped, he was about to commit homicide?

Being a cop means using your brain to make life or death decisions, not abandoning your intelligence to pull the trigger anytime you see something in a person's hands.

 

[JRuby]

I support being a responsible gun owner and not conflating your rights with dangerous choices. I act like civilians are just as dangerous as police. Because they are as far as I'm concerned. I don't trust anyone, and know from experience a little piece of paper that says you can carry doesn't make you smart, practiced, or sober while handling a gun. Dropping your concealed carry in public by possibly losing it, or having it go off should call for a review of that license in my opinion.

Humans make mistakes a smart human tries to reduce that number as much as possible. Regardless of how perfect one tries to be mistakes can and will happen it's called being human. You act like you do not make mistakes and that if you make a mistake police can use all force up to and including taking one's life. On this we disagree.

 

[oneharmonic]

No one has a right to live.

See above. I'm done responding to captain nut job, anyone else?

 

[JRuby]

No one has a right to live. That's a delusion. We all live a life of various risks and choices, and there's no magical right given by any body of authority that guarantees your right to exist. We all merely do our best to get through each day making smart choices in order to survive , hoping to not get hit by a bus, or a stray bullet. bubblegum happens, you aren't special. Get over it.

I do I have a right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. You not knowing this tells alot.

 

[JRuby]

You got assurances made by a body of government and a constitution, the real world around you doesn't follow those rules always and to assume they do is just ridiculous. The drunk driver that's slams into you doesn't care, nor the stray bullet, or the work accident, or all the oth r bubblegum that happens to people. Life is fragile and no perceived right is going to keep you safe.

So you just think the constitution and BOR have no meaning. I support and feel the constitution is the supreme law of the land. To me it is much more than just words it is what this country was founded on. Those words on that paper is worth doing for.