Oregon CHL holder killed by campus police

[JRuby]

I think being educated is More important than blind belief in a very young, and most definitely temporary system of laws, and civil beliefs. The constitution is and has always been a document that changes, and grows as people and civilization has. They aren't called amendments for no reason, they get amended, changed, and so does our society. And it will continue to. I'm sure as hell not gonna die for the unjust, racist, or down right dumb laws that have been upheld over the years, but I do support a country that's able to change and grow into something better and be something more then just words on paper.

I will let your words speak for themselves I have signed my name on several occasions to support and defend that constitution and I would willingly without qualification do it again. Its is interesting to see ones opinion of ones self importance as grand as yours.

 

[JRuby]

That's what makes this country so great. We get to define our own way of living and thinking.

We are two different people you feel that you are the most important entity and that you are smarter than others. I feel that there are certain things that are more important than my own well being. It's called a sense of duty to my country and family. We will never see eye to eye.

 

[OldBroad44]

Part of situational awareness is being alert to danger from potential bad guys. Part of situational awareness is being aware of how our own actions might look to other good guys, armed or otherwise, and especially to LEOs.

There was about four seconds between when the LEO yelled loudly, distinctly, and twice "Drop the gun! Drop the gun!" and when the shots started. We can't see the victim or gun during during that period in the video. Assuming the victim was still reaching for or failing to put gun down during this time, I call this a tragic but justifiable use of lethal force by the LEO. And I would furthermore feel that the LEO had acted optimally, and as he had to act in this situation.

(If instead, the victim was not holding or reaching for the gun when shot, I would consider it a nonjustfiable use of lethal force by the LEO.)

I believe the right time to shoot, if you have to, is at the last possible moment. If the LEO waited until a possible bad guy actually picked up and pointed the gun, that is a critical fraction of a second too late. The possible bad guy could shoot the LEO once or twice before he could respond and fire. The LEO fired at the last possible moment. The victim gave him no choice.

The victim may have made mistakes. He might have not had the gun secured properly. When it dropped, he might have seen and heard the LEO, and continued reaching for the gun anyway. In which case, grevious were his errors, and grieviously has he paid for them.

It's possible that the victim really didn't make any mistakes, though. A holster strap might have been broken in the scuffle. He may not have heard the LEOs warning, or even known LE was there because of the narrowing of visual field and auditory exclusion that can happen in such situations. If so this doesn't change my view of the LEO as having done the right thing. But instead of the victim getting himself killed from his own errors, he would be more like a victim of friendly fire. Two good guys tried to deescalate a fight. Tragically, one died through mistaken identity.

 

[Superglide]

One of the local stations actually interviewed the deceased man at the bar several hours (like 9 hours) before the incident ensued.
I noticed his T-shirt said in very large letters - I AM THE WEAPON
A terrible tragedy underscored by bad choices.

 

[RVTECH]

Part of situational awareness is being aware of how our own actions might look to other good guys, armed or otherwise, and especially to LEOs.

I agree - and using my own 'situation' of a couple months ago as an example I made it very clear to the 911 operator I was armed, and was taking a position on my front deck and would stay there until LEO arrived and would secure my weapon when they did.
IF I were some sort of unhinged or undisciplined gun owner who was 'bent' on 'defending' my property and went running up to the responding LEOs I can see how easily my actions might have influenced their actions and could have been misconstrued as a part of the problem.

 

[clearconscience]

this is very sad,

Man killed by police was US Navy vet trying to break up fight, reports say Man killed by police was US Navy vet trying to break up fight, reports say

My only question is, was this guy drinking while carrying?

 

[OldBroad44]

One of the local stations actually interviewed the deceased man at the bar several hours (like 9 hours) before the incident ensued.
I noticed his T-shirt said in very large letters - I AM THE WEAPON
A terrible tragedy underscored by bad choices.

Right. Given he was cc'ing, he should not have stayed and backed up his belligerent buddy.

In addition, one person interviewed said that during the scuffle he told people he had a gun. Tactically stupid when in a crowd and several people are within reach and can compromise your gun by grabbing at your waist or arms or just wrapping their arms around you while someone takes the gun.

My guess is that saying he had a gun would legally be considered a gun related threat and an escallation. Perhaps brandishing, even though verbal. He might have been thoroughly on the wrong side of the law at that point. He escalated with a gun even though he didn't draw it. And he escalated when he could have withdrawn.

Then how come the gun got dropped? Maybe someone he was trying to dominate by telling them about the gun tried to get it and dropped it, or they scuffled over it. Or maybe he was actually trying to draw it, and someone in the crowd he had just informed of the gun knocked it out of his hand. It will be interesting to find out what the witnesses say.

 

[SUPER X]

So, a guy with a CHL tries to help break up a fight, loses his balance and his gun falls out of his holster. Campus police shoot him dead when he tries to pick up his gun.

Talk about a blatant overreaction by the PSU campus police.

Police: Man dies in shooting involving PSU officer

Man whose gun fell out of holster shot dead by Portland State police: Witness

Bad situation dropping it could have give the others involved in the fight a opportunity to pick it up. The cops don't know who the bad guys are . I might have tried to put my foot on it to stop it from being picked up. But most of all I don't go to bars and do not get involved in others confrontations unless there's no choice.

 

[Alexx1401]

The guy was a Navy vet, father, grandfather, US Postal worker, good samaritan trying to keep his friend from getting into a fight and thrown in jail, and ends up dead because of two cops with itchy trigger fingers.

If our operating principal is shoot first and ask questions later, we're failing. Nothing about his behavior up to that point showed he was doing ANYTHING besides trying to break up a fight. Cops are conditioned to start shooting the second they even see a silhouette in someone's hand, which is why people get killed for holding an iPhone.

The headline should read "Good Guy with a gun gets killed by cops", because cops are ill prepared to even distinguish between a good guy with a gun and a bad guy with a gun.

In a active fight a participant drops a gun, then reaches for it, he gets shot. He was a MORON. He makes ALL CCW holders look bad because he was a moron. So here comes the "lets blame the cops" because some CC holder is a moron and gets shot. This reminds me of that old Chris Rock video of how to not get your a$$ beat by Cops. It's shockingly easy yet every day morons go out of their way to get their a$$ beat. Then of course blame the cop. <shrug>

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Anyone find a raw video?
Did someone pick a fight with the CHL holders friend? It seemed like the cops were just standing around watching the fight while the CHL holders pistol was clearly viable.

 

[4whatitsworth]

In a active fight a participant drops a gun, then reaches for it, he gets shot. He was a MORON. He makes ALL CCW holders look bad because he was a moron. So here comes the "lets blame the cops" because some CC holder is a moron and gets shot. This reminds me of that old Chris Rock video of how to not get your a$$ beat by Cops. It's shockingly easy yet every day morons go out of their way to get their a$$ beat. Then of course blame the cop. <shrug>

Thanks for injecting some common sense in this thread. After reading some of these comments, especially those directed at Lupercal1138, I thought I may have had one too many pints and ended up on a BLM or October 22nd Coalition forum.

 

[P7M13]

RIP Jason Washington.
May we learn from your mistakes.
[deleted a bunch of typing] Even now, as an old man, I would find it hard to not step in to break up a fight.

Best way to not get shot?
1.do not take your gun to a bar
2. if you are too stupid to not follow #1, do not get involved in a fight, especially while Cops are trying to intervene.
3. Assuming you are too stupid to follow 1 and 2, and drop the gun in front of the Cops, do not try to then pick it up.
For anyone who can't follow all the first 3, blame the Cop when you get shot.

No need. You have the students to do that for you.

Now it goes to court and "IF" the police are found guilty they get a letter of reprimand the city pays off the family with taxpayer money and the officers live happily ever after while the family tries to move on.

It doesn't exactly work that way for many LEO.

No one has a right to live. That's a delusion. We all live a life of various risks and choices, and there's no magical right given by any body of authority that guarantees your right to exist. We all merely do our best to get through each day making smart choices in order to survive , hoping to not get hit by a bus, or a stray bullet. bubblegum happens, you aren't special. Get over it.

See above. I'm done responding to captain nut job, anyone else?

While Amendments V and XIV both guarantee right to life, liberty, etc, that is on paper. I've met enough people who felt otherwise, and the ability to rationally dismiss the notion of 'right to life' can make the difference in whether you get to go home or not.

 

[SUPER X]

Now it goes to court and "IF" the police are found guilty they get a letter of reprimand the city pays off the family with taxpayer money and the officers live happily ever after while the family tries to move on.

These were Collage Campus police are they city employed ?

 

[mkwerx]

These were Collage Campus police are they city employed ?

State, PSU is part of the State's university system.

 

[Nick Burkhardt]

Looks like the CHL was just getting up from the ground with his back still toward the police when they shot him.

"All witness accounts say that he was trying to deescalate the fight and that his gun fell out and it was an accident. There's nothing to indicate he did anything wrong," said Olivia Pace, a member of the Portland State Student Union.

 

[SUPER X]

State, PSU is part of the State's university system.

If I remember correctly the Students were protesting the campus police being armed a couple years ago.

 

[American123]

Lots of people already shared their opinion on this.

Sad what appears to be a 'good person' was killed, however, you can be a 'good person' and still make dumb decisions that end up getting you killed.

Alcohol and guns don't mix and should never be mixed, here we have a case of showing just how much they should not be mixed. Even if the guy wasn't drinking at all, he was still associating with people who had been clearly drinking, so much so that the friend was in a drunken fight (and I haven't even watched the video), no need to. Unfortunately carrying a conceal gun doesn't automatically impart some common sense into someone. ANYONE who has a gun on their person should not get involved in a scuffle, EVER. If you are carrying a gun on your person it is your #1 responsibility to AVOID the scuffle, it seems that he interjected himself into the scuffle regardless of how good his intentions were. Had he left it alone his drunk friend would have done something drunk and stupid like most drunks and ended up spending a night in jail for fighting (maybe) instead he tried to be the 'hero' and is dead.

I have 0 patience for people who drink and do dumb things, they bring it upon themselves. Regardless of whether the dead guy was drinking or not, ultimately, he put himself in that situation. If the cops were so close that they could shoot him for trying to pick up his gun, clearly they were close enough to handle the drunk friend.

As unpopular of an opinion as it may be for the "hate cops crowd," this goes into the category of playing stupid games and winning a prize. Cops are simply people and my opinion of most people is that they are pretty stupid, so why would we expect a cop whose primary goal is to survive every dangerous encounter not to shoot a guy who is picking up a gun even if he isn't threatening. Police don't appreciate a balance of power, they prefer being the ones with the guns and everyone else being the civilians who need their help. So when a guy disrupts that balance, hes automatically a threat, add in that part about most people being pretty stupid and naturally we end up with a dead CC'er

 

[mkwerx]

If I remember correctly the Students were protesting the campus police being armed a couple years ago.

Yup, because unarmed cops make sense so IF a crazy guy started shooting the place up, or stabbing people, the police can call more police, but with guns. Like they do in the UK...

 

[Jonnyuma]

Yup, because unarmed cops make sense so IF a crazy guy started shooting the place up, or stabbing people, the police can call more police, but with guns. Like they do in the UK...

Aaaahhh yes... the old "British cops don't even carry guns" argument... haven't heard that one in awhile.
I sort of miss saying, "Yeah, we have unarmed cops here too... we call em Meter Maids".

I'm not implying that you were making that argument, just citing it as more AltLeft nutjobbery.

 

[justcuz]

You perceive in typical calm retrospect, in the heat of the fracas everyone's senses are working perfectly, the cops yelling in perfect unison [not normally] over the din of traffic of the bus stop area, vehicle noise, etc; and the gentleman, who to his surprised dismay has suddenly found himself losing his balance, finds his firearm has fallen out of its holster and is lying on the ground in the middle of an altercation between others has focused on only one thought - get may firearm back in hand to keep altercation members from getting hold of it.

LEs believe all team members have to scream commands and those being screamed at can understand and heed those commands. Watch children at play react then have a group of adults hollar the same command at them, see what chaos ensues.