National Anarchists and Guns

[DuneHopper]

The bottom line is folks don't get to call themselves Pro 2A if they're not supporting those rights for everyone.
If it's a natural right, a constitutional right, then you should have no problem with folks who are wildly different from you (or maybe not so different from you) exercising the same rights you enjoy.
It's not that complicated.

I can agree, but only partially......
That is a pretty slippery slope. Isis was able to open training camps in Oregon and still do near Corvallis using these rights most of us enjoy. If Anarchy is embracing our rights to extinguish, our way of life a line must be drawn, or that line gets blurred and abused. many would be shocked, or surprised or even to be aware of Middle eastern diplomats in the vicinity of these camps. Yet they are allowed to exist, and one must ask at what peril do we allow this grey area and not force people to choose?
If you look at Prisons, criminal capitalize on the weakness of the system to still operate a criminal empire in prison, LOL
Are we not doing the same, allowing those under the guise of rights working also to remove ours?

 

[NW Backpacker]

I didn't read through the whole thread, as this kind of thread just isn't really my thing anymore, but thought I'd share something I saw, as it relates to the whole right/left thing:

View attachment 597126

Yes, I know it's a bit simplistic and general, but it illustrates that there's so much more to the story than just the old right/left linear graph. I remember my dad telling me decades ago that traditional European conservatism was quite different from traditional American conservatism, because the European view nearly always tended towards statism, whereas traditionally the American view is rooted in more libertarian ideals.

I don't want to wade into any political threads, but I just thought I'd post that graph. I know it's simplistic, but it made sense to me the first time I saw it, helped me understand things I didn't really get before.

Interesting graph, but libraries are filled with books arguing over whether fascism is a philosophy of the left or the right. That's one of the irony's of ANTIFA - they are fascists, but they call the other side fascists. A couple of good Youtube video titles on it:

AMERICAN FASCISTS (a 7 minute video by Bill Whittle)
Is Fascism Right Or Left? (a 5 minute video from PragerU with Dinesh D'Souza)

The bottom line is folks don't get to call themselves Pro 2A if they're not supporting those rights for everyone.

If it's a natural right, a constitutional right, then you should have no problem with folks who are wildly different from you (or maybe not so different from you) exercising the same rights you enjoy.

It's not that complicated.

I don't remember anyone on the pro-gun side EVER saying that another group should not be able to exercise their 2A rights; except for criminals, people who are a threat to others, terrorists, etc. Or did I miss something?

Whatever happens, at the next protest, I will get the best-dressed award because I shop the ads on NWFA.

 

[DuneHopper]

I don't remember anyone on the pro-gun side EVER saying that another group should not be able to exercise their 2A rights; except for criminals, people who are a threat to others, terrorists, etc. Or did I miss something?

Whatever happens, at the next protest, I will get the best-dressed award because I shop the ads on NWFA.

View attachment 597177

i am just gonna throw this out there and assume they do not carry your size.

 

[bbbass]

I can agree, but only partially......
That is a pretty slippery slope. Isis was able to open training camps in Oregon and still do near Corvallis using these rights most of us enjoy. If Anarchy is embracing our rights to extinguish, our way of life a line must be drawn, or that line gets blurred and abused. many would be shocked, or surprised or even to be aware of Middle eastern diplomats in the vicinity of these camps. Yet they are allowed to exist, and one must ask at what peril do we allow this grey area and not force people to choose?
If you look at Prisons, criminal capitalize on the weakness of the system to still operate a criminal empire in prison, LOL
Are we not doing the same, allowing those under the guise of rights working also to remove ours?

Yes. An additional thought... when I finally checked in with IMO on this thread, I wrote that I thought anarchists could arm as long as they are not fomenting revolution. Of course, some will not understand English, so I'll clarify: By "fomenting" I mean those actively involved in promoting, planning, instigating, inciting, etc an overthrow of the duly elected government. We can grouse all we want and say hypothetically that we will do this or that if gov does this or that... no matter. But if one takes up arms against the gov, as the constitution says we have a right to do under certain circumstances, better win.

 

[bbbass]

AMERICAN FASCISTS (a 7 minute video by Bill Whittle)
Is Fascism Right Or Left? (a 5 minute video from PragerU with Dinesh D'Souza)

I like their stuff!

 

[turbo_vanner]

I worked on a pot farm in southern oregon for a bit after I graduated from college. Lots of off the grid, diy, anarchist types out there doing that. To what degree their anarchy is/was or how they define it, I don't know, but I do know they are all pretty heavily armed. Not many were very serious about practicing though.

That was about 10 years ago too.

 

[CLT65]

I like it! Tho I'm a bit uncomfortable seeing fascism on the conservative side. Historically maybe, but now I'm seeing a lot of fascism coming from the other side. The high handed push of this year's OR supermajority immediately comes to mind.

The chart is divided into quadrants, rather than sides. I agree that while "fascism" isn't terribly easy to define, the fascist movement of the first half of the 20th century was generally considered conservative (in a European conservative way). I consider myself fairly conservative, but in an "upper right quadrant" way; lower-right quadrant conservatives scare me a little, much like lower left quadrant "progressives".

I've known plenty of old-school liberals who fit generally in the upper left quadrant to one degree or another, who don't bother me at all. We don't agree on a lot of things, but generally respect each other's right to disagree.

 

[HuckleberryFun]

The chart is divided into quadrants, rather than sides. I agree that while "fascism" isn't terribly easy to define, the fascist movement of the first half of the 20th century was generally considered conservative (in a European conservative way). I consider myself fairly conservative, but in an "upper right quadrant" way; lower-right quadrant conservatives scare me a little, much like lower left quadrant "progressives".

I've known plenty of old-school liberals who fit generally in the upper left quadrant to one degree or another, who don't bother me at all. We don't agree on a lot of things, but generally respect each other's right to disagree.

I feel the same about old-school conservatives.
We disagree, but we can talk.

 

[DuneHopper]

The chart is divided into quadrants, rather than sides. I agree that while "fascism" isn't terribly easy to define, the fascist movement of the first half of the 20th century was generally considered conservative (in a European conservative way). I consider myself fairly conservative, but in an "upper right quadrant" way; lower-right quadrant conservatives scare me a little, much like lower left quadrant "progressives".

I was once a middle of the road Conservative. And being old school myself, I soon found at-least for me there is no more middle ground. Why some may respect the choices made, the majority far left and far right are widening the gap forcing the lines to be drawn.

I've known plenty of old-school liberals who fit generally in the upper left quadrant to one degree or another, who don't bother me at all. We don't agree on a lot of things, but generally respect each other's right to disagree.

I feel the same about old-school conservatives.
We disagree, but we can talk.

There was a time I once looked at things just like this, I even worked to see some unity and common ground. I am an old school conservative raised in a Liberal environment (SF Bay Area). Even once saw common ground Or so I thought). I think that its great some see a common ground of discussion. But the hard truth is that line is getting wider, not thinner. I have met with many left side politicians and their constituents, my finding is that common ground is a myth. Seems everyone who thinks there is still common ground will eventually find there is not.
Even the Colonist felt there was common ground with England, but when SHTF, they truth was clear and the red coats turned on the people they asks to trust them.

The whole duck is a duck thing .........repeated.

 

[DB is Here]

The point is, if we as Pro 2A proponents can't have a discussion about protecting our rights w/o getting mucked up the politics of if all we are doomed. Let's stay focused on what we agree upon, not what we don't.

To much to ask?

 

[The Heretic]

Yes. An additional thought... when I finally checked in with IMO on this thread, I wrote that I thought anarchists could arm as long as they are not fomenting revolution. Of course, some will not understand English, so I'll clarify: By "fomenting" I mean those actively involved in promoting, planning, instigating, inciting, etc an overthrow of the duly elected government. We can grouse all we want and say hypothetically that we will do this or that if gov does this or that... no matter. But if one takes up arms against the gov, as the constitution says we have a right to do under certain circumstances, better win.

This is the thing.

IMO fascist or not, both left and right want to be in control, and by control I mean absolute control. I am not talking about the "man on the street" - I am talking about those "leaders" who wind up in power.

So the question is academic.

Antifa, by their actions, proves that they want power and control too - by violently attacking those they disagree with. They may think that their violence is justified, but they are just a faction of the left that cannot bring about what they say they want.

I have often seen people here imply they want a 'revolution' - and sometimes a violent one - or saying they are ready for one.

This country is so fractionalized that I really doubt that any faction would win, and it would just be another excuse for the powers that be to grab more power and crack down on the people - especially with regards to firearms.

 

[bbbass]

The chart is divided into quadrants, rather than sides. I agree that while "fascism" isn't terribly easy to define, the fascist movement of the first half of the 20th century was generally considered conservative (in a European conservative way). I consider myself fairly conservative, but in an "upper right quadrant" way; lower-right quadrant conservatives scare me a little, much like lower left quadrant "progressives".

I've known plenty of old-school liberals who fit generally in the upper left quadrant to one degree or another, who don't bother me at all. We don't agree on a lot of things, but generally respect each other's right to disagree.

I partially disagree.

I can't believe I'm gonna rebut you over the use of the word "sides" to describe the chart. But here goes: Although the chart is indeed divided into quadrants, it also has geometric shape. A box, with sides. Without the labels at the sides, there is no meaning to placement of the quadrants in the chart. There are quadrants on the left side, and quadrants on the right side, quadrants on the upper, and quadrants on the lower... the left side being clearly marked "Liberal" and the right side being clearly marked "Conservative".

I also think that the chart better relates to actual human behavior/ideology if one sees it spatially (I'm a visually ordered person.) In other words where one human being is on the chart is more than just in one quadrant, but at a point on a plane inside the quadrant. Ie, a very conservative highly fascistic person would be in the lower right corner of the lower right quadrant, whereas a lightly conservative, slightly fascist person would be in the upper left corner of the lower right quadrant.





I also disagree that it's hard to define fascism. I found a couple defs: Dictionary defines fascism as:
Fascism is a way of ruling that advocates total control of the people. Meh, there's more to it than that: Fascism is a form of government which is a type of one-party dictatorship. Fascists are against democracy. ... Fascism puts nation and often race above the individual. It stands for a centralized government headed by a dictator. Historically, fascist governments tend to be militaristic, and racist. Still not there... A fascist is a follower of a political philosophy characterized by authoritarian views and a strong central government — and no tolerance for opposing opinions. Much better!

I don't know much about the "fascist movement" of the early 20th century other than what little I read in the past, and what garbage there is about it on the internet currently. What I remember is that there was a lot of romanticism of everything German... from German philosophy (Marxism, Nietzche), to German psychology (Freud, Kant), to Hitler, to anti-semitism. It was also a time of mega-industrialists. Mussolini is probably the iconic fascist, tho I don't think Americans thought much of him. The fascist movement did not survive the start of WWII, although IMO tatters and pockets of it remain today.

People on the bottom right don't scare me, we'll just beat them up or shoot them if they cause trouble. -JK

People anywhere on the far-left spectrum scare me... they want to make dramatic changes, often seeing themselves as revolutionaries in the tradition of Che' or Lenin. Anarchists scare me when they speak of no rules, no order, no gov at all.

Classic liberals I can talk to. They probably fit more towards the interior center of the chart. They're typically nice, and we have good conversations, exchange ideas and thoughts. But they are a disappearing group... being outlived, pushed out, or radicalized by the more extreme on the spectrum.

I'm firmly in the upper right center of the upper right quadrant, a libertarian. More individual than conservative, admirer of Ayn Rand, who was staunchly anti-communist, having lived under the boot of it. In a letter written on March 19, 1944, Ayn Rand remarked: "Fascism, Nazism, Communism and Socialism are only superficial variations of the same monstrous theme—collectivism."

 

[CLT65]

You're absolutely right about the sides. I worded my response poorly; I really just meant to say that there are more than two "sides". In some way the Y axis on that chart matters more to me than the X axis.

Your post is very good. I think you and I see thing much the same way.

 

[CLT65]

I don't think the typical Antifa goon has any clue what Fascism really is. If they did, they would be opposing the fascists in Salem.

Libertarian leaning people by definition cannot be fascist.

 

[DuneHopper]

The point is, if we as Pro 2A proponents can't have a discussion about protecting our rights w/o getting mucked up the politics of if all we are doomed. Let's stay focused on what we agree upon, not what we don't.
To much to ask?

To answer the question, Yes. That is too much to ask. Because I do not agree
with any position the left has on gun rights. I get it, there are many on the left that own guns. But I am only being honest in saying "I" (just me)don't care and that is not directed at anyone. But I am cooked, put a fork in me done trying to hold hands. Just can't do it.
Getting to old, and have higher priorities then wasting anymore time.

Stubborn, maybe. But I am living by the same convictions that the left also follows. And on that and only that I can agree we have the right to feel how we do. I just am being direct and honest. Not hateful, or bitter. Just direct and honest.
Side Note:
Hmm I just watched 11 Law makers walk out swear to not return and did, then the opposition pounced after making agreements they then backed out on. If law makers cause these problems, all the talking in the world wont change anything.

Just for the record there is nothing "we " agree on. We meaning all firearms owners as in we can not not count all of us as wanting to compromise and discuss like mindedness. Those that want to, God Bless your efforts, but... the same respect for those denouncing such acts of common ground as a myth should also be respected. Thats all I am saying. There seems to be this hardline move to convince sick and tired gun owner like me to try and just get along with those we disagree with. Been there, done that and even wrote a book on it. No sarcasm intended.

The relevance is I think that activities seem just to convenient of timing for all this lets all talk now... I may be wrong, but thats why I am talking about this topic. Not to bash what other think, just to state this particular person won't put that hand out only to have it slapped. As stated been there done that ........... yadayadayada

Just to be clear not aiming this at anyone, or any group. I am not mad, bitter or hateful. Just have a very strong opinion.

 

[DuneHopper]

I don't think the typical Antifa goon has any clue what Fascism really is. If they did, they would be opposing the fascists in Salem.
Libertarian leaning people by definition cannot be fascist.

What is that definition? Just curious...... I realize that they are not Liberals, So how would they not be included/excluded. Appreciate the input. Thanks.

 

[CLT65]

What is that definition? Just curious...... I realize that they are not Liberals, So how would they not be included/excluded. Appreciate the input. Thanks.

I'm not a hard core Libertarian at all, just "libertarian-leaning", but libertarianism is a "smaller government" ideology, favoring minimal government control over the individual. Fascism is by nature a big-government ideology, favoring total government control over the individual. The two ideologies are just not compatible.

 

[CamoDeafie]

What is that definition? Just curious...... I realize that they are not Liberals, So how would they not be included/excluded. Appreciate the input. Thanks.

Fascism is just another word for collectivism; for Statism. Libertarians, be they left leaning, or right leaning, are all about individualism; ie, sovereign citizenship, go-your-way, leave-us-alone, living independently of government rule.

 

[Goosebrown]

Fascism is just another word for collectivism; for Statism. Libertarians, be they left leaning, or right leaning, are all about individualism; ie, sovereign citizenship, go-your-way, leave-us-alone, living independently of government rule.

Last post before closure!!!! Yay!!!

 

[Kruel J]

Last post before closure!!!! Yay!!!

Meh, I don't see a reason to close this. My opinion, for what it's worth.