National Liberal Gun Owners Club (Real)

[DB is Here]

I'd like to think I'm not a one issue voter but to me the 2A is the guarantor of the others we hold dear.

 

[ma96782]

Note what the Dems (which includes alot of self-described: liberals) have as their party platform......

Preventing Gun Violence
With 33,000 Americans dying every year**, Democrats believe that we must finally take sensible action to address gun violence. While responsible gun ownership is part of the fabric of many communities, too many families in America have suffered from gun violence. We can respect the rights of responsible gun owners while keeping our communities safe. To build on the success of the lifesaving Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, we will expand and strengthen background checks and close dangerous loopholes in our current laws; repeal the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA) to revoke the dangerous legal immunity protections gun makers and sellers now enjoy; and keep weapons of war—such as assault weapons and large capacity ammunition magazines (LCAM's)—off our streets. We will fight back against attempts to make it harder for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives to revoke federal licenses from law breaking gun dealers, and ensure guns do not fall into the hands of terrorists, intimate partner abusers, other violent criminals, and those with severe mental health issues. There is insufficient research on effective gun prevention policies, which is why the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention must have the resources it needs to study gun violence as a public health issue.

Taken from: https://www.democrats.org/party-platform#gun-violence

Mind you..... that I'm NOT saying that a RINO is any better (if/when it comes to grabbing guns).

IMHO......if you can't understand ".....shall not be infringed". Most likely you're, Anti-Constitution =Anti-American.

Aloha, Mark

 

[awshoot]

If you're a 2A supporter, it is simply nonsensical to vote for/support politicians who are putting in a deliberate effort to try in strip you of your rights/property. Period.

Boss

"Liberal" is not a synonym for "Democrat" any more than "conservative" is a synonym for "Republican" (why are the Democrats such warhawks and McCarthyites recently? What have the Republicans done to reign in the deficit recently?)

The fastest way to lose your gun rights, is to pin them to a set of other unrelated issues, and if you want to lose them especially fast, pin them to one party. Those who want to keep their gun rights will do all they can to make the issue party agnostic, because that means more people -- left, right, and center -- caring about those rights.

 

[NW Backpacker]

Are these the types of naïve folks who vote for politicians who try to legislate away their rights?

I believe you are correct. Fortunately the club only has 2600 members - fewer than many high schools around here. They are probably well-meaning folks who just do not understand how close we are to losing huge chunks of our 2A rights, and the rest of our rights not too long after that. Apparently they do not understand the history of unarmed populations.

The problem with the state of politics right now is that there are many, many center and libertarian folks that don't prescribe to either party. People's views are more complex than what a two party system can provide.

They can bury their heads in the sand and virtue signal that their views are just too complex for a 2 party system, but, like it or not, we live and vote in a 2 party system. A D or an R will occupy most elected offices. One of those parties has stated they want to repeal the 2A. Failure to comprehend that will not make it any better when the 2A is taken from us forever. That's what is at stake.

Our healthcare system in this country is atrocious.

False. Don't confuse health care with health insurance. We have probably the best healthcare system of any nation, probably a lot better. You can get a multi-bypass heart operation within 24 hours, maybe less, if you need it. Many (not all) cancers can be treated and either cured or at least the patient's life prolonged for years. You can get an MRI any time you need one. You may not like the cost, but in most countries you can't get these things without going on a long waiting list if it is available at all. Why is our system so much better? Profit. If people can get rich by coming up with innovative treatments and drugs, then they will work miracles to make it happen, and they do so every day. Take the profit motive away and you'll get an aspirin and a Chaplain when you go to the doctor. Our system is far from perfect, and the high cost is partly (mostly?) the result of government regulations and mandates. If government is so great at health insurance why isn't Obamacare awesome? Why are the premiums unaffordable even though they have huge deductibles?

I believe in a balanced budget, something both parties no longer care about. I also think that we could be using the tax code and tax law to better incentivize nuclear families and small business.

Sounds nice, but your statements are non-specific, thus they have no meaning. They do not state what you'd cut or how high you'd raise taxes to achieve those things. The devil is in the details. Provide the details, do the math, then let us know how it would work.

But, back to the topic...Yes, I think that it is perfectly possible for someone to lean left but also be very caring about 2A. They may not be the norm...

Agree with this. Unfortunately, those who vote left, whether they understand it or not, are destroying the 2A. There is no wiggle room on it; may have been some wiggle room 20 years ago, but not today. One party has vowed to repeal the 2A - we all know which one that is.

 

[NW Backpacker]

"Liberal" is not a synonym for "Democrat" any more than "conservative" is a synonym for "Republican" (why are the Democrats such warhawks and McCarthyites recently? What have the Republicans done to reign in the deficit recently?)

"Democrat" is defined as the party of gun control. Period. End of story. They've said they are taking our guns, by force, if we fail to hand them over. Doesn't get much more clear than that!

The Ds are suddenly warhawks because they are opposing the Big Bad Orange Man; that is the ONLY reason.

The R president is making trade agreements, trying to strong-arm our trading partners with tariffs, etc so that our economy will do better, grow more jobs, and thus produce more tax revenue. He's also deleted a lot of idiotic regulations that hinder business so they can be more profitable, hire more people, all of which expands the economy and increases tax revenue.

 

[Hueco]

They can bury their heads in the sand and virtue signal that their views are just too complex for a 2 party system, but, like it or not, we live and vote in a 2 party system. A D or an R will occupy most elected offices. One of those parties has stated they want to repeal the 2A. Failure to comprehend that will not make it any better when the 2A is taken from us forever. That's what is at stake.

It's not virtue signaling to state that a two party system does not encapsulate the nuance of a person's views. No way...we live and vote in a two party system? WHO KNEW?

Let me restate my point for you using different words: a person may be in a "democrat" club but may not side with some or even most of the "democratic" views, thus when election time comes, they may vote republican or third party. Them simply being a part of the democrat or republican club gives us little about their actual views.

False. Don't confuse health care with health insurance. We have probably the best healthcare system of any nation, probably a lot better. You can get a multi-bypass heart operation within 24 hours, maybe less, if you need it. Many (not all) cancers can be treated and either cured or at least the patient's life prolonged for years. You can get an MRI any time you need one. You may not like the cost, but in most countries you can't get these things without going on a long waiting list if it is available at all. Why is our system so much better? Profit. If people can get rich by coming up with innovative treatments and drugs, then they will work miracles to make it happen, and they do so every day. Take the profit motive away and you'll get an aspirin and a Chaplin when you go to the doctor. Our system is far from perfect, and the high cost is partly (mostly?) the result of government regulations and mandates. If government is so great at health insurance why isn't Obamacare awesome? Why are the premiums unaffordable even though they have huge deductibles?

Don't get hung up on semantics. Unless you define your terms at the beginning of the debate, *most* people include insurance when talking about United States healthcare as a whole. And guess what? Changing the insurance system will have direct impact on the healthcare system, and vice-versa. The system, as a whole, is not without fault.

I never said that the government was good at health insurance. I stated that for-profit insurance doesn't rub me the right way from a moral perspective. I'm sure wishing that you would have addressed that point, as it gets to the root of how either of us value these things, than get hung up on semantics.

Sounds nice, but your statements are non-specific, thus they have no meaning. They do not state what you'd cut or how high you'd raise taxes to achieve those things. The devil is in the details. Provide the details, do the math, then let us know how it would work.

The devil is always in the detail - but why explore the details of the route if we don't agree on the general direction? Let's backtrack and discuss if you even think the general direction is a good heading?

Agree with this. Unfortunately, those who vote left, whether they understand it or not, are destroying the 2A. There is no wiggle room on it; may have been some wiggle room 20 years ago, but not today. One party has vowed to repeal the 2A - we all know which one that is.

Simply voting right isn't a solution, lest you simply give all the power to the side that, though they support one thing you like, may support 10 things you don't. Thanks to some loudmouths on twitter, the Democratic Party has been pulled way left. Hopefully, after they get crushed at the next election, enough of the moderates will bring them back to sanity (which can include reframing the party line view on 2A). Either way, the solution to a secure 2A isn't to simply vote right through the end of time, it's to aid in helping the Democratic Party reframe their stance.

Honestly, with how far and fast they've gone left, I would guess that the fringe will faction off and/or be forced to faction off so that the Democratic Party can get back to being a blue collar support group...in which case they'll come back to center and the fringes, at that point, hopefully die without the support of the whole party (since, as you so astutely noticed, we're a two party country and that is unlikely to change...thus, third parties usually die).

 

[awshoot]

...
The Ds are suddenly warhawks because they are opposing the Big Bad Orange Man; that is the ONLY reason.
...

The D's became open warhawks (HRC was always one) during the Obama administration when Obama extended and expanded GWB's wars, used the secret legal memos GWB used to justify due process free detention (Gitmo) to include due process free execution of American citizens, the domestic spying programs, etc. etc. In order for Democrats to lionize Obama, they are forced to embrace GWB and his policies. They also hate Trump no doubt, but the philosophical underpinnings of their rush to embrace anti-constitutional authoritarianism and foreign wars of aggression, is rooted in Obama.

As I said. Liberal does not mean Democrat.

 

[BPOR11]

OMG.....look at all them lever actions.


That's what I said!

The original "Assault Weapon" (well, kind of)

Now, if we can just get them to put 2 and 2 together and turn CNN off.

 

[NW Backpacker]

Let me restate my point for you using different words: a person may be in a "democrat" club but may not side with some or even most of the "democratic" views, thus when election time comes, they may vote republican or third party.

As we all know, no one votes 3rd party. All votes result in a win for a D or an R in our system. I agree with you that few people believe everything a particular party stands for.

I never said that the government was good at health insurance. I stated that for-profit insurance doesn't rub me the right way from a moral perspective. I'm sure wishing that you would have addressed that point, as it gets to the root of how either of us value these things, than get hung up on semantics.

You also said: "Is it mutually exclusive that someone would believe in state run healthcare but also believe in the right to self defense?......"

My apologies if I misunderstood you - sounded like you might be for state run heathcare.

I know from experience that health insurance used to be affordable when you could buy catastrophic insurance that:
did not cover pre-existing conditions,
cost more if you were a smoker,
did not cover routine checkups or a snotty nose,
you could choose the max amount your policy would cover in a year.

Also, you didn't have to sign up every year or lose it - it automatically renewed. The BCBS policy I chose back then would not pay for pre-existing conditions for 90 days after your initial sign-up. I was younger then, it cost $19 per month, and the government had no involvement in it. That insurance is now illegal to sell, thanks to the government. Blue Cross Blue Shield is a FOR PROFIT company and that insurance was AWESOME. I suspect they could offer affordable insurance today to a lot of people if the government allowed them to do it, but the party of gun control destroyed the health insurance business.

Let's backtrack and discuss if you even think the general direction is a good heading?

There's always room for improvement - usually by getting government out of the way. There isn't going to be any improvement on anything from congress soon - the party of gun control is too busy trying to remove the bad orange man. And that's great - at least they've shut up about gun control for now!

Hopefully, after they get crushed at the next election, enough of the moderates will bring them back to sanity (which can include reframing the party line view on 2A). Either way, the solution to a secure 2A isn't to simply vote right through the end of time, it's to aid in helping the Democratic Party reframe their stance.

I hope you are right and the left is crushed in 2020. We have to beat the party of gun control in 2020 - problem is they are highly motivated by hatred of the Bad Orange Man. We can worry about "the end of time" later. I wish you and others much luck in changing the D party. I do write my D senators/congressman occasionally - they just get nuttier and nuttier.

 

[Caveman Jim]

If all gun owners that care about our 2A rights and vote for the gun hating politicians contacted them and told them to knock off the GC BS OR ELSE then something good may come about but it's not happening right now...

 

[zenbreath]

As with the Pink Pistols, I am happy when ANY American supports the 2A.

However, the thread title reminded me of this.....

 

[Member 52301]

RKBA issues aka The Second Amendment.

Self defense issues that are important for ALL people not just a select group of people.

(Minus the violent insane and violent criminals that do not belong in a sane and safe society due to them being a danger to all people by being in the public and not behind bars, dead if you murdered someone or in an asylum.)

Defender and supporter of the Constitution/Bill of Rights and it is not a ____ amn piece of paper as a famous R (Bush 2.) once said, other Rs and Ds have said too.

The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence were NOT suggestions!

FISCAL conservative.

I basically am a one or two issue voter (Guns and Liberty!) but there are MANY other factors that I consider when I look at any candidate.

Too long to type now.

Old Lady Cate

 

[308]

...."and yes, even middle-aged white men make up its more than 2,600 paying members"....

Thank whole article reads like it was written by someone who tucks his man junk before leaving the house

 

[bolus]

It has been interesting reading through a liberal guns owners forum. I think we share more in common than we think.

Personally, I feel that there is no pro-gun politician. There are really only very anti-gun politicians and best case do-nothing politicians. Just like having 2 years of republican majority houses and getting exactly zero pro-gun legislation. None of those politicians want us armed.

I always feel voting is the avoiding the worst of 2 evils.

Reading the liberal gun owners forum I see people who want to vote for liberal non-gun issues but hate the fact that they dont have any pro-gun democrats to vote for. So they dont vote and get apathetic

So I think there might be more possible camaraderie there we give credit for. Because I'm progun and I either get to vote for a politician who is very anti-gun or a politician who will do nothing until they are replaced by an anti-gun politician. Fast death or slow death.

I still want a Second Amendment party where the only party platform is voting progun, everything else secondary.

 

[zenbreath]

It has been interesting reading through a liberal guns owners forum. I think we share more in common than we think.

Personally, I feel that there is no pro-gun politician. There are really only very anti-gun politicians and best case do-nothing politicians. Just like having 2 years of republican majority houses and getting exactly zero pro-gun legislation. None of those politicians want us armed.

I always feel voting is the avoiding the worst of 2 evils.

Reading the liberal gun owners forum I see people who want to vote for liberal non-gun issues but hate the fact that they dont have any pro-gun democrats to vote for. So they dont vote and get apathetic

So I think there might be more possible camaraderie there we give credit for. Because I'm progun and I either get to vote for a politician who is very anti-gun or a politician who will do nothing until they are replaced by an anti-gun politician. Fast death or slow death.

I still want a Second Amendment party where the only party platform is voting progun, everything else secondary.

It was the same with Occupy and Tea Party. When you read what they were unhappy about, there was a 2/3 overlap.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

im a single issue voter. i vote for my 2A rights even though its a guaranteed right. yeah. guaranteed until "they" say so, right?

i swear no matter what party someones affiliated with if they were to flat out say "were going to repeal the NFA, allow constitutional carry, enforce the laws we already have, impose stronger penalties for crimes committed with guns, no registration BUT everything needs a BGC on the person itself and not tied to the gun" id vote for them. left, right, green, independent, dont matter. the problem is, most politicians are full of crap.

there will be a second civil war.












and epstein didnt kill himself

 

[American123]

I'm sure Colonel Sanders has his chickens cared for real nicely up until they are served.

 

[Stomper]

We need to have a face-palm emoji added to the library....


I'll sum up the human political situation thusly.... no one has a problem with tyranny, as long as it's THEIR brand of tyranny.

 

[zenbreath]

We need to have a face-palm emoji added to the library....


I'll sum up the human political situation thusly.... no one has a problem with tyranny, as long as it's THEIR brand of tyranny.

The hand that has the power to balance the scales also has the power to tip the scales in their favor.

 

[wheretheheckami]

If folks from both sides of the aisle demanded that all current gun laws be enforced, we'd have no need for any further encroachment.

That wouldn't stop those proposing more laws. They really don't care about anything other than disarming citizens.