Am I the only one who things that flashlights on weapons are counterproductive?

[Wyo79]

I'm shooting at the light

I only have one light and it's not on my EDC, just saying. I personally think they make a pistol too bulky.
That said I would love to see how well you shoot at the light when your pupils are wide gathering light in a dark house and someone hits you with a strobe.

 

[64MercurysRule]

I have 2 rusty hammers in reach to repel boarders. If blunt force trauma don't getcha, maybe the tetanus will.

I have a 2 for one with a light duct taped to hammer ....

 

[Koda]

I am always curious about the "no light" crowd; how do you expect to do target identification? Just shoot at shadows?

With a handheld light. Your not supposed to search with a WML.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Have emergency lights setup aimed at all engress/egress points with the same brightness as the stadium lights. Activated by motion or door/window alarm systems turned on when everyone in bedrooms, other than the routes to bathroom(s) and kitchen

 

[bcp]

Hallway or stairway + boulder

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2WAkHuEVHQ


Bruce

 

[Alexx1401]

So much not answered in that comment. What kind of light? An actual WML grade beam or a little AAA firefly light? What was the environment? Indoors? Outside? What was the range? Under 10 feet, more than 30 yards?

If this was a suspect hunt I am assuming this is an outdoor scenario where ranges would exceed the effective range of the light, or offer angels that a super-bright light cannot fully cover. Those are indeed the exact situations where a light can be a liability. They are also not the type of situation you will find in most home defense scenarios, and so would not be applicable to such a discussion.

You can find a story to back up ANY idea you want to support or say is bad. Again this is something everyone will have to decide on their own. The VAST majority of gun owners will go their entire life and never use a gun on another person so no matter what they choose to do will work. Its rare anymore I have to "search" an area in total dark. Last time was in a power outage. I used a WM light to search in that instance. If I came up on something I needed a gun for I did not want to have to switch from the light to the gun. Many don't like this idea and that's great for them.

 

[Spitpatch]

An important piece of advice from those of us using weapon lights (or WML's) longer than others. You may be overlooking the most important requirement when making the decision to use one:

It is critical that it be matched to the weapon.

 

[lucusloc]

There's enough there.
The message is, if you want the convenience of a WML there is risk if you are on a two-way range.
No two ways about it.

No, there really isn't. The difference between close range/indoor and medium/long range/outdoor environments are huge when it comes to the application of a WML. WML offer a massive short range advantage. That advantage diminishes rapidly with range, to the point where they are a large liability in most outdoor situations. So which situation are we talking about here? Because LEOs are going to find themselves in the later scenarios a whole lot more than someone whose job is not to track down bad guys when they run. Most of us are going to be in a 100% defensive situation indoors, in the exact type of environment where a WML is optimal.

Just like understanding when to use FMJ/solid case vs hollow point vs. anything else knowing when and how to deploy a weapon light is valuable knowledge that should be talked about and shared. When people have misconceptions those should be pointed out and corrected.

If you do plan on being in a situation where a WML is liability there are lots of other options you can use. You can use the separate-light-held-at-extension method, but that has drawbacks in limiting the type of weapon platform you can deploy (hard to do that with a long gun, for example). You can use the buddy-light system. You can use NODs. And if all you have is a weapon light (because you are solo, poor and using a long gun) you can minimize the disadvantage by using periodic-light-and-sidestep. Not idea, but then again being solo in the dark is less than ideal in the first place, and the sidestep method is better than nothing.

But having a light when you need it is still a vital capability. Sticking it on the end of your weapon offers several ergonomic and utility advantages that should not be discounted just because there are known disadvantages in completely different situations.

You can find a story to back up ANY idea you want to support or say is bad. Again this is something everyone will have to decide on their own. The VAST majority of gun owners will go their entire life and never use a gun on another person so no matter what they choose to do will work. Its rare anymore I have to "search" an area in total dark. Last time was in a power outage. I used a WM light to search in that instance. If I came up on something I needed a gun for I did not want to have to switch from the light to the gun. Many don't like this idea and that's great for them.

Everyone gets to make their own choices yes. They can make them for whatever reason they want. They get to deal with the consequences of those choices. To go back to an example in another thread someone could choose to use 6mm Flobert as their defensive cartridge of choice. Good for them. It is when they start telling other less knowledgeable people that "6mm Flobert is great! Basically no recoil, super small form factor, you should use it!" that we get to step in and say "Hey now, that is not the sum totality of the situation here, we should probably discuss why 6mm Flobert is maybe not the best choice for defensive use. . . " If you know what all these factors are and you still decide to use 6mm Flobert then see the opening thesis of this paragraph and knock yourself out. Yeah "most people will never have to use their firearm for real" and yeah "most defensive gun uses resolve with no shots fired" but that does not mean I think "you don't need to think about your own self defense" or "just carry a fake gun, it will work in most cases" are good general advice.

Someone saying that a WML is not a great idea in a home defense situation falls into this category. In 99% of those situations yeah, it really is a great idea. It offers unique advantages other light systems cannot. In that particular use case (the one the vast majority of us will be in should we ever have to use a firearm for real) a WML will offer all upside and basically no downside. It is only when you get into situations the vast majority of us will never be in (unless you are a LEO or some kind of other professional) that WML becomes a liability. But too many people equate those two situations and think they are the same thing. They are not, and the sooner we clear that up for everyone reading along the better.

And yes, I recognize that people still may have good reasons for not mounting a light. Cost, personal ergonomics, not their style, all valid reasons. Also not what I am arguing. People here are saying that a WML will not offer an advantage in the situation they very really will. That is the issue here. It is one of education and knowledge, not anything else.

 

[Koda]

A light is not going to "give your position away" to some enemy that is hunting you, it is going to let some criminal thug know you are ready for them, and that means, in 99 out of 100 case (if not more), they are going to skedaddle. And if they do not run, at down-the-hall distances they are going to be fairly well blinded by any decent system, and that too will give you an edge.

Your locking all your training into one mold. Hopefully every situation will go down this way for you.

 

[Xaevian]

Have emergency lights setup aimed at all engress/egress points with the same brightness as the stadium lights. Activated by motion or door/window alarm systems turned on when everyone in bedrooms, other than the routes to bathroom(s) and kitchen

I would have to unplug my stereo set up to blast Baby Shark on repeat to plug those in, so a no from me.

 

[lucusloc]

With a handheld light. Your not supposed to search with a WML.

Again, who is searching? In a home defense situation I certainly will not be. I will call the LEOs and they can search if it is needed. No matter how you slice it searching solo is a risky proposition. Yeah, sometimes people (LEOs mostly) have to do that, but it still sucks. Yes, in that situation you do not want a WML.

A WML is for me to 100% positively identify my target before I pull the trigger. That is either as I am dong minimal moving to gather my family of after we bunker down. Whether that light is always on (perhaps if I am covering the hallway) or I use the momentary function (if we are bunkered down in the corner of a room and I am covering the door) is pretty situational, but the cool thing about modern lights is that is a choice you can make in the moment. The fact that at those distances the light will dazzle and disorient a hostile is just some serious advantage-icing on the cake. They can go ahead and be blind for the split second it will take me to ID and shoot. Hell, maybe the light will tip them off and I will not have to shoot at all.

But no matter how you slice it there is no real disadvantage there. Most of the scenarios where there is a disadvantage are just not applicable to home defense situations. And guess what, even if you find yourself in the one situation where you just know the light is going to be a problem just leave it off. Problem solved.

 

[equin68]

Things like cost come into play

Cost shouldn't be a factor. Understand that not everyone can afford surefire, I had to save up for mine. LAPG gear has great affordable options that are strong enough to help partially blind the opponent


Key point is tactics. LE is a different scenario than civilian defense. The law is different in the state of OR for the two: LE has to engage, civilian doesn't. They overlap when you have a plan that requires you to sweep family members into a common room. For that situation you need to follow LE best practices which involve both WML and hand held light and know when to use each.

 

[lucusloc]

Your locking all your training into one mold. Hopefully every situation will go down this way for you.

What other mold is there? We already covered the other situations where a light is not appropriate. That does not apply to most people here. I see no realistic situation where a WML will be a liability in a home defense situation, tons of ways where it will be a huge advantage, and even if you do find yourself in some bizarre situation where you have identified how it will be a liability you can just leave it turned off. What is the argument here?

 

[MTpockets]

I will give a scenario that a weapon mounted light might be useful.

It is 2:AM and you are dreaming of those delicious prime-rib left-overs from dinner… the dream is so real, that you wake to sounds of the meat platter clanking on the counter top. You are thinking…They better not be leaving me the dried out end-cut… So you grab your HK MARK23 with LAM combo to head off any after hours dining disappointers.

As you enter the kitchen, lit only with a faint glow of the fridge-door ice dispenser, you notice an opportunist making a sandwich with one of your unsecured kitchen knives…

You say, "Hey lemme git half that sammich!"

The opportunist declines, and then lunges…trying to foil your attempts at fencing the frigeratory faux pas. You fire once, the opportunist recoils and falls to the floor... and into the shadow of the kitchen's center island. You trigger the white-light switch on your LAM, illuminating the opportunist, moaning with hunger and holding your favorite Ginsu Slicer. You keep the blinding beam trained on them as you ask Alexa to call the authorities...leaving your other hand free to grasp that delicious prime-rib sandwich...

....if only you had a third hand ...for the napkin to wipe the horseradish from the corner of your mouth. <member quotes out of context>

Side note: You realize you should have dusted your home more frequently, as you watch the freshly disturbed particles dance through the light's throw.
B-Side note and disclaimer: Shooting people sucks....if at all possible, avoid it...

Pic added because I like to keep one with a light attached...because prime rib.

 

[Colt Carbine]

I am always curious about the "no light" crowd; how do you expect to do target identification? Just shoot at shadows?

I have no dog in this fight over WML's but leaving some lights on would help.

 

[Koda]

A WML is for me to 100% positively identify my target before I pull the trigger.

No, thats called searching. You should not be pointing a gun at anyone you have not first 100% positively identified, first. Use the WML to aim, not identify. Use a flashlight to identify.

 

[lucusloc]

Cost shouldn't be a factor. Understand that not everyone can afford surefire, I had to save up for mine. LAPG gear has great affordable options that are strong enough to help partially blind the opponent


Key point is tactics. LE is a different scenario than civilian defense. The law is different in the state of OR for the two: LE has to engage, civilian doesn't. They overlap when you have a plan that requires you to sweep family members into a common room. For that situation you need to follow LE best practices which involve both WML and hand held light and know when to use each.

Cost is a factor for some people. That is one of the reasons I will never disparage Hi-Point. They serve a niche. I can definitely see someone making the decision that a WML is too much strain on the budget and they have other higher priorities (yes, even for the cost of a budget light). And even apart from the subjective decisions I will probably agree with a lot of people making those choices. If your choice is a budget WML or an upgrade to your work shoes get the shoes man. You will use those every day and they will benefit you greatly, whereas the light is something you can make due without and may not even be a factor if you have to defend yourself.

And yeah, the differences between how a LEO operates in their job duties and someone defending their own home is exactly how I was discussiong how the concept of "WMLs are liabilities and should never be used!" Yes, that is true in some situations, but for most of us that is not the case and a WML is a huge asset for our most likely use case.

 

[lucusloc]

No, thats called searching. You should not be pointing a gun at anyone you have not first 100% positively identified, first. Use the WML to aim, not identify. Use a flashlight to identify.

You do know that a WML lights a whole room right? You don't have to point it at someone to see them? I could point my WML straight behind me and still have enough bounce light to ID someone in front of me. I only point the light at you if I want to completely blind you, and if I do that I probably have made the decision you are are least worth considering shooting.

 

[Xaevian]

One upside to a WML is it leaves you an open hand to scatter legos about

 

[Unicykle]

I could see where if we're talking urban warfare at night and unintentional light discharge could be bad But camping in the middle of nowhere by yourself and some thing is rustling through your gear just outside the tent they're pretty handy.