Alphabet no knock warrant shootout, agent and homeowner injured

[Catfishmoon]

Problem is they may not actually be LEOs executing a search warrant. Gangs are imitating this behavior now too because the fast pace of the hostile treatment lets them get in while their targets are still trying to decide if this is a real LEO raid and should be cooperated with and dealt with in court or if it a gang raid that will just execute everyone when they have gained control of the situation. And this is not just being used on rivals, it is being used to target rich looking homes for goods and possibly even hostages. In theory anyone could be a victim of this kind of assault.

On the other hand if LEOs would just execute warrants in non-hostile ways, where you can validate paperwork and get lawyers involved, then there is little reason to presume they will try to execute you as soon as your back is turned, because someone pretending to be a LEO cannot really get an upper hand that way.

The decision to go in all flashy and "high speed" has consequences beyond just what is on the surface.

You make some legitimate comments regarding whether or not no-knock warrants should be legal, but the fact is they currently are and to me that is a different debate for another day...
The bottom line in this instance is a law enforcement officer was serving what appears to be a completely legal search warrant and was shot in that process...
I agree that there are instances where bad people dress and imitate as law enforcement, but I do not think that will work as a successful legal defense for the shooter or his family in this instance.

 

[lucusloc]

You make some legitimate comments regarding whether or not no-knock warrants should be legal, but the fact is they currently are and to me that is a different debate for another day...
The bottom line in this instance is a law enforcement officer was serving what appears to be a completely legal search warrant and was shot in that process...
I agree that there are instances where bad people dress and imitate as law enforcement, but I do not think that will work as a successful legal defense for the shooter or his family in this instance.

It has worked as a defense before, it just depends on if you get a reasonable judge. There a lot of factors on whether it is reasonable for a person to presume to be defending themselves; for example how much notice did the guy have before he was confronted? Since this was an early AM raid it is reasonable to presume he was asleep during the announcement, which means he may not have been aware there was an announcement. If they yelled once (possibly waking him up) and then smashed the door all he would be aware of is "there are loud armed thugs coming through my door!" and his shooting response would be perfectly reasonable and justifiable.

Double that if he had no reason to believe he had the attention of law enforcement and would not have presumed to have been under investigation. Lots of people believe the BS lies from the media and politicians about the state of gun laws. If he was in a private party state he may very well have presumed his actions were legal because that is what many people in the media and the political sphere claim. Does not matter if you or I think it is reasonable to believe that, if he had no reason to presume a warrant would be served that would be the last thing on his mind when the feds came through his door.

Just because a raid is "legal" does not mean it is justified, or that people are not being reasonable and justified in shooting at the invaders. The way LEOs conduct those raids prime the situation for bad outcomes, for themselves and their suspects. And this is a lesson learned so many times now that one wonders if that is not the intent now, for a myriad of reasons.

 

[Catfishmoon]

Have you ever been in a situation of complete disorientation with shouting going on that doesn't immediately quite register(?)
Have you ever been in a situation where your subconscious "fight or flight" instincts are truly triggered(?)

It's not unreasonable that he didn't feel he was doing anything incredibly wrong, and also not unreasonable that he was simply going about his everyday, comfortable, middle class life without much care in the world. Devoid of the heightened situational awareness and senses that may be more common among those that are fully aware of the gravity of their actions and are in a constant state of preparedness and anticipation of such an occurrence.

IOW, mentally unprepared for what he was faced with.

Simply being aware of the possibility and having it play out in your mind beforehand can greatly impact a persons reactions.... in the moment.

What if it did register they were shouting "federal agents".. or similar? Does he believe it or does it seem outside the realm of possibilities that LE would be busting down his door in such a way? We know that criminals are known to declare themselves as LE in a ploy to put a potential victim off guard. Did that have any play in his thought process?

We have also seen it often enough where alphabet agents have been dressed in regular street attire with nothing more than a vest to identify themselves. In that moment, did they appear to be what they claimed or did the man actually only see some guys in a mix mash of street clothes, jackets and firearms rushing him?

We'll never know.

I "can" say that I don't personally foresee any reason LE might have to break in my front door. If someone was doing so... I know that my own default thought would be, "bad guy"! In a similar situation I also don't know if I would believe anyone claiming to be LE at face value.

Case in point:
Just last summer I had a knock on my front door near midnight. A bright light was shining on the peep camera so I couldn't see out and claiming to be LE. I knew of absolutely no reason for them to be there so my "trust but verify" policy kicked in. Before I would go to or open the door I told them to drop the light, step back from the door a few feet so I could get a full head to toe view... and even though they appeared to be in proper uniform I made them turn to the camera so I could clearly see their agency badge.

It was the 4th of July and, as it turn out, they were just investigating illegal fireworks that were reported going off somewhere in the vicinity of our home. Our lights were on, they saw we were awake and just "fishing" if we knew anything. However, not all criminals are idiots and you really can't be too careful, IMHO. YMMV


Call me a cynic, but I bet there are a few alphabet agents and some of their higher ups that are going to view this situation as a "win". Shoot someone's dog or toss some lead into someone's brain pan every once in awhile will feed the fear factor and keep a lot sheeple from coloring outside of the lines.

After all... it's not as if they aren't going to get away with it, anyway.

I am not saying that I support no-knock warrants, but they are currently legal and I certainly don't support the shooting of a law enforcement officer serving a legal search warrant...
For all any of us know, the cop who was shot knew nothing about the case other than he was assigned to help serve the warrant.
Bottom line is we are speculating because none of us knows the facts...
I am not even certain that law enforcement has to legally identify as they breach the door. I would think so, and I would hope so, but I have never researched it.

 

[Catfishmoon]

Just because a raid is "legal" does not mean it is justified, or that people are not being reasonable and justified in shooting at the invaders.

Perhaps there are instances where a person mounted a successful legal defense after they shot a law enforcement agent who was serving a search warrant on the correct address.. My guess is such legal victories are rare.

 

[lucusloc]

I am not saying that I support no-knock warrants, but they are currently legal and I certainly don't support the shooting of a law enforcement officer serving a legal search warrant...
For all any of us know, the cop who was shot knew nothing about the case other than he was assigned to help serve the warrant.
Bottom line is we are speculating because none of us knows the facts...
I am not even certain that law enforcement has to legally identify as they breach the door. I would think so, and I would hope so, but I have never researched it.

It still has not been established that he knew (or should have known) that he was shooting at an officer. He could be completely innocent of that charge.

And as another point of reference, why should we trust the ATFs version of event here, when this is the same agency that has such operation as Ruby Ridge and Waco under their belt (to name just the most infamous examples)? Even if the ATF release a version of events that absolutely paint this guy as the next LEO assassin why should we believe their version of events when the suspect is dead and unable to tell their side of the story? We already know they lie.

 

[Catfishmoon]

It still has not been established that he knew (or should have known) that he was shooting at an officer. He could be completely innocent of that charge.

And as another point of reference, why should we trust the ATFs version of event here, when this is the same agency that has such operation as Ruby Ridge and Waco under their belt (to name just the most infamous examples)? Even if the ATF release a version of events that absolutely paint this guy as the next LEO assassin why should we believe their version of events when the suspect is dead and unable to tell their side of the story? We already know they lie.

Not saying you have to trust anyone you are skeptical of. I place little trust in the veracity of the comments of his brother.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Not saying you have to trust anyone you are skeptical of. I place little trust in the veracity of the comments of his brother.

Right or wrong about the deceased, the brother has one thing absolutely correct , it was one of the worst ways to "serve a warrant". He even suggested a peaceful/nonviolent way of serving warrant, and heck, several of us here have said the same thing, there are better ways to serve warrants than to go full SWAT raid on a suspect accused of lying on his federal 4473s and accused of knowingly selling to prohibited persons, as well as accused for being in the business of selling guns without a FFL.

Not once have I read of the deceased being convicted of any prior felonies, or even being duly convicted by a jury of peers for violating the Federal statutes.

But.. he is dead now. And he cannot defend his innocence. We only have the words and assertions from an Agency known to have lied to people in order to convict and arrest them.. and known for such heavyhanded responses.

 

[Saladfarmer]

Personally, I have very little sympathy for any individual that decides to shoot at a law enforcement officer who is serving a search warrant. I don't care what the search warrant is in regards to, the way the legal system is designed is that point gets argued and decided at a later date in front of a judge in a courtroom (and then an appeals court if you don't like that decision). The legality is not open to debate during the execution of the court ordered search...
An extremely poor decision by the homeowner to fire a weapon at an officer doing his job. I am totally in support of law enforcement going home alive at the end of their shifts.

6am someones bashing on your front door and you don't know who or what is happening? I think at this stage of America, many people may be inclined to shoot at the threat. Anytime of day really, if your door comes crashing in, are you waiting to see what it is?
Just a thought for food

 

[Catfishmoon]

But.. he is dead now. And he cannot defend his innocence. We only have the words and assertions from an Agency known to have lied to people in order to convict and arrest them.. and known for such heavyhanded responses.

Once again we are all speculating on many of the facts, myself included...
But it certainly appears to me, that the only reason he is dead is because he made the decision to shoot a law enforcement officer who was serving a legal search warrant...
It appears you place more trust in the person who shot the officer and his brother who was not there at the time than in the law enforcement officers who were actually there. I am the opposite, the LEO's are more trust worthy until proven otherwise...
I am not naive enough to believe there are not corrupt officers, some exist from small city departments to large federal agencies. But in my experience, the individual officer gets the benefit of doubt by me believing they have integrity and are honest until proven otherwise.

Perhaps I am naive and I over-estimate the integrity of the average law enforcement officer, but I do not think so.

 

[Catfishmoon]

6am someones bashing on your front door and you don't know who or what is happening? I think at this stage of America, many people may be inclined to shoot at the threat. Anytime of day really, if your door comes crashing in, are you waiting to see what it is?
Just a thought for food

Go ahead and shoot a law enforcement officer at your front door with a legal search warrant.
See how that works out for you.

 

[lucusloc]

Right or wrong about the deceased, the brother has one thing absolutely correct , it was one of the worst ways to "serve a warrant". He even suggested a peaceful/nonviolent way of serving warrant, and heck, several of us here have said the same thing, there are better ways to serve warrants than to go full SWAT raid on a suspect accused of lying on his federal 4473s and accused of knowingly selling to prohibited persons, as well as accused for being in the business of selling guns without a FFL.

Not once have I read of the deceased being convicted of any prior felonies, or even being duly convicted by a jury of peers for violating the Federal statutes.

But.. he is dead now. And he cannot defend his innocence. We only have the words and assertions from an Agency known to have lied to people in order to convict and arrest them.. and known for such heavyhanded responses.

Considering how battered the ATF is getting in the courts right now it may have been very bad for them to have to bring this to court. It is entirely within the realm of the possible that this was their desired outcome. the only thing that can be brought against them now is excessive force, and that will do approximately bumpkins to hinder their regulatory overreach in the future.

Remember how fast they gave that guy manufacturing absolutely illegal ARs (by the ATF's definition) a sweetheart plea deal a few years ago because his lawyer hit upon the genius idea to challenge the federal statutes defining what a gun actually is, and how an AR technically does not meet those requirements (on account of it being a two part receiver)? I doubt very much the ATF wants a similar situation that scrutinizes how they define being "in the business" and this guy might have been willing to fight that battle. Setting him up for a bad shoot is absolutely within their MO since, as I stated before, we have absolute proof that they have done exactly that in the past.

I think this goes way beyond just heavy handed enforcement techniques and is very plausibly within the realm of "actually a conspiracy."

 

[Saladfarmer]

Go ahead and shoot a law enforcement officer at your front door with a legal search warrant.
See how that works out for you.

That's not the point sir

 

[Yarome]

In an affidavit for a search warrant I think it's pretty plain to see they are going to paint someone in the worst light possible and "bend" the appearance of the facts to their advantage. After all... they are trying to present the best possible probably cause to convince a judge to sign off on it, right(?)

For all intents and purposes though I don't understand a no knock raid. The guy had no criminal history. He had a wife, a home and stable job of 16 years that seems to indicate he was not at all a flight risk. They had a tracker on his vehicle for quite an extended period and indicated no unusual patterns. Travelling from home to work, back again... and returning directly to his home after gun shows. No mention of stashing firearms or illicit cash in storage units or some such.

It's also not as if there was the threat of his flushing the evidence down the toilet once LE had a warrant in hand. Even if he tried to remove all the firearms from his home... he was under constant surveillance at that point.

I obviously don't know the guy from Adam, but he has the appearance of just your average person and of sound mind. If true, it makes no rational sense that he would take the "go out in a blaze of glory" approach by knowingly firing on LE. It appears more "reasonable" that he was in fact responding to what he thought to be an impending threat to his life.

None of it adds up.

Some additional details that done appear is if the person ultimately caught with the firearm was the one he actually sold the firearm to or not. How many times did it change hands in between(?) What were the conditions of any subsequent transfer(?).

I know it's easy to put forth the argument that he must have known something was not on the up and up if a person was willing to pay $700 for a $500 firearm, but than again... people make dumb purchases all the time. An impulse buy, convenience... a person simply having more disposable income than is good for them(?) That argument is marginally as compelling as "no one legally able to buy one themselves would pay that much." Enough at least to cast doubt on the alphabet narrative.

I'm sure some folks around here too can attest that buying and selling can be an addiction. The "hype" of finding a great deal. Making a little extra change as a side hustle is pretty en-vogue these days. Firearms isn't exactly a great choice if you don't get yourself an FFL license, but I can see a casual hobby maybe spiraling a bit out of control.

Before 941 went into affect, I saw plenty of guys that very likely could have been in the exact same situation this guy was in. Clearly a bit beyond just a casual hobby selling off "personal firearms". KWIM

 

[CamoDeafie]

Okay
Kick in a gun owner's door ar 6am wearing SWAT gear and yelling loudly, and see if you don't get fired upon.

Bonus points if the gun owner has no idea that an investigation on him is ongoing. (No mention whether or not the deceased knew he was being looked at with scrutiny)

Extra points if the warrant gave you a time range and you went for the earliest possible time with a disproportionately large amount of force used against someone who has a clean record as far as we can all tell.



6am to 10pm

Didn't select "delayed notice"(means must immediately serve notice of warrant and receipt of items sesrching for)

Didn't say must use SWAT resources.

if a person was willing to pay $700 for a $500 firearm, but than again... people make dumb purchases all the time. An impulse buy, convenience...

See 85-95% of the firearms classifieds ads right here that are still up

 

[lucusloc]

In an affidavit for a search warrant I think it's pretty plain to see they are going to paint someone in the worst light possible and "bend" the appearance of the facts to their advantage. After all... they are trying to present the best possible probably cause to convince a judge to sign off on it, right(?)

For all intents and purposes though I don't understand a no knock raid. The guy had no criminal history. He had a wife, a home and stable job of 16 years that seems to indicate he was not at all a flight risk. They had a tracker on his vehicle for quite an extended period and indicated no unusual patterns. Travelling from home to work, back again... and returning directly to his home after gun shows. No mention of stashing firearms or illicit cash in storage units or some such.

It's also not as if there was the threat of his flushing the evidence down the toilet once LE had a warrant in hand. Even if he tried to remove all the firearms from his home... he was under constant surveillance at that point.

I obviously don't know the guy from Adam, but he has the appearance of just your average person and of sound mind. If true, it makes no rational sense that he would take the "go out in a blaze of glory" approach by knowingly firing on LE. It appears more "reasonable" that he was in fact responding to what he thought to be an impending threat to his life.

None of it adds up.

Some additional details that done appear is if the person ultimately caught with the firearm was the one he actually sold the firearm to or not. How many times did it change hands in between(?) What were the conditions of any subsequent transfer(?).

I know it's easy to put forth the argument that he must have known something was not on the up and up if a person was willing to pay $700 for a $500 firearm, but than again... people make dumb purchases all the time. An impulse buy, convenience... a person simply having more disposable income than is good for them(?) That argument is marginally as compelling as "no one legally able to buy one themselves would pay that much." Enough at least to cast doubt on the alphabet narrative.

I'm sure some folks around here too can attest that buying and selling can be an addiction. The "hype" of finding a great deal. Making a little extra change as a side hustle is pretty en-vogue these days. Firearms isn't exactly a great choice if you don't get yourself an FFL license, but I can see a casual hobby maybe spiraling a bit out of control.

Before 941 went into affect, I saw plenty of guys that very likely could have been in the exact same situation this guy was in. Clearly a bit beyond just a casual hobby selling off "personal firearms". KWIM

It does not help that the ATF is constantly screwing with the definitions they have in place. What exactly is "purchasing with the intent to transfer" anyway? If you see a really good deal on a firearm you think migh be worth quite a bit more in a few years is that a hobby investment or does it require an FFL? What about stuff that you want for barter in a SHTF situation? Is that an intent to distribute in violation of federal law? Hell, is any gun you purchase without the intent to keep it forever considered nefarious by ATF standards? What about the new standards they set tomorrow?

This is an agency that has lost all semblance of reasonableness and benefit of the doubt. They are actively looking for ways to violate otherwise innocent people engaging in innocent activity that harms no one. What they said was ok yesterday they can define as a felony tomorrow, and they will claim that all they are doing is sticking to the "strict definition and intent of the law" (however they wish to define it). You assume you are safe because you "comply", but what you forget is that it was never about compliance, it is about making every gun owner a felon by any means necessary.

 

[Yarome]

But it certainly appears to me, that the only reason he is dead is because he made the decision to shoot a law enforcement officer who was serving a legal search warrant...

Legal warrant or not I think you have to look at the instigation factors involved. Who instigated the factors that lead to the escalated response that then precipitated the end result?

Kinda like walking up to a guy twice your size, sucker punching him and then shooting him dead because... he was twice your size and the first return punch he landed on you knocked you silly... putting you in fear for your life. Is it the guys fault he's now dead... or your fault for sucker punching him (even if you feel justified) instead of using your words?

 

[dhshred710]

Interesting reading. I read it all and basically boiled down into him acting as an FFL without a license. Buying mass quantities, and multiples of firearms, mainly via gunbrokers, and reselling at gun shows as private party transactions (BGC not required).

What tipped the alphabet off was that a couple of firearms he sold turned up in illegal possession/prohibited person cases. At least one in conjunction with gang ties and illicit drug possession.
.........

It does appear fairly evident he was purchasing for resale.

There was no extenuating cause for an "any hour" day or night warrant. It was issued to be served between daylight hours (6am-10pm).

They had a tracker on his vehicle for quite a long while and would have easily been able to locate him at will in a non confrontational setting to detain him. Why they chose a no-knock raid on his home certainly does appear to just have been a trigger happy power play to show off, IMHO.


**The nutshell: By all appearances he was acting as an FFL without a license, selling legally obtained firearms PP without a BGC, and it earned him a body bag.

Skimmed most of the warrant so I could be off a bit...

Unsure how I feel about the illegal possessions/prohibited persons cites in the warrant, half were pot possession with firearm and others were gang bangers from states away... i'd guess a few people resold that firearm before gang bangers got ahold of them (and paragraph 42 admits the firearm was stolen). Of course, no one should handle a firearm with drugs/alcohol, but this doesn't seem like a guy with huge black market/gang related contacts.

Memphis gun show and Canada confidential informant is where he trips their radar also. He talks about selling ar-pistols, out of state, without a FFL; you're asking for dem politicians to scream about how their state AW/etc laws can't be enforced. The limited info on the Canada confidential informant makes me get conspiratorial about Canada's efforts to smuggle firearms up north... the guy worked at an airport, I was expecting ATF to have flight numbers with direct profits after discussing international traces.

Nonetheless, none of it implies a no-knock warrant should've been considered. Knock or not, you wake up to banging on the front door at 6 am, are you checking the peephole or grabbing a weapon? While you're grabbing a weapon or checking your phone to see if someone is trying to get ahold of you, the breacher starts on the door and/or windows start getting busted... I'd assume my house is getting robbed.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Seems to me that the ATF needs a new theme song :
Can't you hear me knocking...By the Rolling Stones.

Just tossing out some humor here.

No knock warrants are a bad idea all around for all involved.
Especially so if...there are much better times and places to serve a warrant , make an arrest...etc...

With all the distrust of "alphabet agencies" that is out there warranted or not ( pun intended )...
Events like the OP do nothing to dispel that distrust.
If anything they bring more gas to the fire.
Andy

 

[Yarome]

Events like the OP do nothing to dispel that distrust.
If anything they bring more gas to the fire.

That's what bothers me the most. They are supposed professionals and are fully aware of the impact a no knock full on raid is going to have on a suspect... and it's not like it was a "fly by the seat of your pants" op as a situation was developing. By all accounts they were on the guy for months so you know it was a deliberate and conscious decision to do it the way they did.

Just supposition, but having a bit of an idea how some of their minds work it really makes one wonder if that wasn't simply taking advantage of an opportunity for their team to get some live training exercise time in. From the limited appearances it's likely he would be considered a very low risk white collar cream puff target. Kind of a prime chance for something like that if a director was of the type to have no qualms about 'using' a private citizen for the agencies gain.

Let's face it. If it went according to plan and no shots were fired, hardly anyone would ever even become aware of the heavy handing... and even if they did... no one would really care anyway about some upper middle class white guy getting manhandled around in the suburbs.

I don't condone it in the least, but I can certainly understand how an opportunity like that might appeal to those with a bent moral compass.

 

[MakarovManiac]

No knock raids should be illegal. Complete infraction of your civil rights. Its a pretty normal response to fire upon somebody who just kicked your door in at 3 in the morning. But for whatever reason they keep doing it and saying "durrr we dont know why he shot at us! We only broke his door down!" Stupid is, as stupid does. I for one know Id be doing the same thing if this happened to me, police, home invader? I dont care. You are obviously not welcome in my home if you have to kick the door down and forcefully enter you've now made your intentions clear and your right to life is null and void.