Oregon Using Rifle for Self-Defense Outside Home

[RX-79G]

The other problem with running into a school with an obvious gun is that you may scare the exiting students back toward the shooter.

Those deaths are on you.

 

[Member 53328]

"I just got a jet ski, and I like to fanaticize about rescuing a puppy swept out to sea with it," is how this kind of thread topic reads to me.

If I was outside of a school with a shooting going on and I had a CCW, there is NO WAY I would go back to the car for a different gun. Time is life - know how to use what you have.

Yup. Carry something that you can actually use and be effective with.

 

[cbabcock686]

I would be worried about getting the truck rifle stolen for sure. And I don't have thousands of dollars to spend on a custom hidden rifle rack for the truck. Has anyone seen any legit custom hidden rifle holders?

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Truck guns don't have to be rifles. Any of mine stay in the single-pull-to-open pack on the seat next to me or in arms reach. They never are left in the car unattended. It takes just a second to throw the stealth sling pack over your shoulder and take it with you. The 10.5" .223 brn-180 shown below Fe can be fired with stock folded which can be handy in a vehicle and if needed you can deploy stock. Also numerous PCCs can be truck guns.

Whether confronted by a psycho while you are in the car (of which there are numerous reports in Pdx daily). A group of thugs attacking you (again happens a lot in Portland), armed carjackings (I have witnessed three attempted armed car jackings here), rioters, antifa, and other situations a handy truck gun can be a much better option than just a pistol. Imo if you do it right they take about the same time to deploy as your edc.

6947521B-E15A-4D97-88A7-5664BC5D9806.jpeg

• ilikegunspdx
• Aug 31, 2022

90F62D45-05A2-49CF-AD8B-6AFE4271ABD1.jpeg

• ilikegunspdx
• Aug 31, 2022

Small PCCs or whatever you want to call them examples:

View attachment 1395567

View attachment 1395568

Someone asked me about lengths:

16" ar15 - 31.5"
12.5" sig virtus .223 (no buffer) - 22"
10.5" brn -180 .223 (no buffer) - 18"
Mp5k 9mm - 15"
Glock with b&t usw alumin chassis - 12"

This will give an idea of how stowable those are in vehicle.

Virtus was not shown in pics above:

 

[bradsteen]

I'm all for having a long gun or PDW available when necessary, but I don't see deploying it in response to an active shooter as a good idea. While there have been active shooters stopped by civilians responding with rifles (Sutherland Springs was one, IIRC), as many others have opined already a person with a long gun is most likely going to be misidentified as a bad guy. Hypothetically I guess you could have it in a rapid deployment bag (Vertx, 5.11, etc) and carry it with you into the threat environment, but at some point the gun would come out, and you have no way of knowing if cops are also in the building or not. If they are, you're probably gonna get dropped.

I think it would be better to respond with an EDC pistol because you can keep it concealed until you absolutely have to engage the threat, and you can respond immediately instead of wasting time running back to your vehicle to get your gun. There is obviously still a risk of misidentification but far less so than with a long gun.

I view the truck gun or backpack gun as strictly a Get Home weapon, one only to be deployed in true SHTF / civil unrest situations. If I had a trunk vault or similarly secure locking container that was disguised from view outside the car and bolted to the frame so thieves couldn't walk away with it, I might consider keeping a long gun in my vehicle. Other than that, probably not.

If you're considering having a truck gun or backpack gun, I strongly recommend checking out The Backpack Gun Project. Chris Baker from LuckyGunner does a fantastic job of summarizing the extremely limited circumstances in which one could be useful. The YouTube video is linked below, as is the article / transcript for those who prefer to read.

The Backpack Gun Project - Lucky Gunner Lounge

Chris explores the concept of a backpack gun, what it's good for and what you consider if you're exploring one yourself.

www.luckygunner.com

 

[RX-79G]

If playing fantasy SWAT team is that high on your priority list, at least put a fake badge necklace or "Federal Agent" windbreaker in the car with the rifle. It might prevent your presence causing more people to be killed, and might not be indicted for impersonating if everything goes okay.

 

[Gunbuggy]

They can think different and again you can want to go in there and save the day but expect to be shot..... that's like saying what if it was your kid drowning in an icy river. yeah go jump right in, but expect to drown as well. I'm not trying to be insensitive here, I get it you want to go save the day , but reality is reality expect to get shot.

It's crazy to me that some people don't understand this. I mean i get it, If it were my kid in that school I'd run in there with my rifle too but I'd fully expect to be shot by somebody or police and that risk would be fully worth taking if it meant stopping harm from being done unto my kid.

Just had a similar conversation with an idiot coworker of mine not too long ago about risk and reward, being the "hero" and what usually happens when someone tries to be the "hero" He can't wrap his head around this. The kind of guy that doesn't train AT ALL, "conceal" carrys a full size pistol under his tight bubblegum jeans and 2-sizes-too-small shirt that usually has a huge gun or american flag or "I won't hesitate to shoot you" type decal all over it. The same guy who thinks because he has a gun he is invincible, but hasnt ever shot the gun he carried, doesn't even know how to take it apart and asked me the other day "what do you mean dry fire what is that?"

After a while I just stopped trying to help ppl and stopped caring all together. It used to be fun teaching ppl, and now ppl are so cocky and full of themselves it's not worth the wasted breath

 

[Certaindeaf]

So this was an April fool's thread? Didn't really read

 

[ilikegunspdx]

I'm all for having a long gun or PDW available when necessary, but I don't see deploying it in response to an active shooter as a good idea. While there have been active shooters stopped by civilians responding with rifles (Sutherland Springs was one, IIRC), as many others have opined already a person with a long gun is most likely going to be misidentified as a bad guy. Hypothetically I guess you could have it in a rapid deployment bag (Vertx, 5.11, etc) and carry it with you into the threat environment, but at some point the gun would come out, and you have no way of knowing if cops are also in the building or not. If they are, you're probably gonna get dropped.

I think it would be better to respond with an EDC pistol because you can keep it concealed until you absolutely have to engage the threat, and you can respond immediately instead of wasting time running back to your vehicle to get your gun. There is obviously still a risk of misidentification but far less so than with a long gun.

I view the truck gun or backpack gun as strictly a Get Home weapon, one only to be deployed in true SHTF / civil unrest situations. If I had a trunk vault or similarly secure locking container that was disguised from view outside the car and bolted to the frame so thieves couldn't walk away with it, I might consider keeping a long gun in my vehicle. Other than that, probably not.

If you're considering having a truck gun or backpack gun, I strongly recommend checking out The Backpack Gun Project. Chris Baker from LuckyGunner does a fantastic job of summarizing the extremely limited circumstances in which one could be useful. The YouTube video is linked below, as is the article / transcript for those who prefer to read.

The Backpack Gun Project - Lucky Gunner Lounge

Chris explores the concept of a backpack gun, what it's good for and what you consider if you're exploring one yourself.

www.luckygunner.com

Disagree. PDW weapon, Glock with USW, or bufferless 556 pistol with folding stock can be used in a huge array of scenarios, whether in vehicle or outside of it. Easy to conceal, not too hard to carry, and much more effective than standard pistol.

I think the backpack in that video for casual, everyday, or truck gun use is a much worse option than sling pack. With a sling pack, in one motion using your weak hand you can bring pack from your back to in front of you, open bag completely and then grab pistol grip with your strong hand. It takes close to the same time as drawing from holster.

Also a sling pack you can lay on seat or next to seat on floor and it functions as concealment and a scabbard. Also it takes just a second to throw it on as you leave the car. If it's not tactical looking it is basically invisible. I just walked the dog a few hours ago with my sling pack on with mp5k clone and 4 mags. Walked past numerous neighbors, people jogging, walking, walking dogs etc. Just looks like a nothing bag.

Also looks to me like that pistol in the video has a buffer. I would not do that. Buffer add tons of length for no reason. A bufferless 556 gun with folding stock is a much better option Imo. Much smaller. Pdw or pcc is another option.

Also you can carry one of these Glocks with USW in a holster or even in the inside pocket of a standard fleece or on sling or whatever. Not much bigger or bulkier than the pistol alone but massively extends range and accuracy.

Any of those guns I would feel confident going into many situations with and they are also very concealable and fairly easy to carry. Extremely easy to stow and access in vehicle. Also very comfortable having one of these in your lap if in troubling situation while in vehicle.

Brn-180 556 10.5"
Mp5k
Sig virtus 12.5"
Mp5 full size
Glock 9mm or 10mm in b&t usw brace
Lots of other bufferless .223 and smal PCCs not listed here

4EA724A6-6D42-4474-8734-C3F07AC4C93C.png

• ilikegunspdx
• Feb 27, 2023

Brn 180

6947521B-E15A-4D97-88A7-5664BC5D9806.jpeg

• ilikegunspdx
• Aug 31, 2022

90F62D45-05A2-49CF-AD8B-6AFE4271ABD1.jpeg

• ilikegunspdx
• Aug 31, 2022

Mp5 full size

Mp5k

 

[bradsteen]

Disagree. PDW weapon, Glock with USW, or bufferless 556 pistol with folding stock can be used in a huge array of scenarios, whether in vehicle or outside of it. Easy to conceal, not too hard to carry, and much more effective than standard pistol.

I think the backpack in that video for casual, everyday, or truck gun use is a much worse option than sling pack. With a sling pack, in one motion using your weak hand you can bring pack from your back to in front of you, open bag completely and then grab pistol grip with your strong hand. It takes close to the same time as drawing from holster.

Also a sling pack you can lay on seat or next to seat on floor and it functions as concealment and a scabbard. Also it takes just a second to throw it on as you leave the car. If it's not tactical looking it is basically invisible. I just walked the dog a few hours ago with my sling pack on with mp5k clone and 5 mags. Walked past numerous neighbors, people jogging, walking, walking dogs etc. Just looks like a nothing bag.

Also looks to me like that pistol in the video has a buffer. I would not do that. Buffer add tons of length for no reason. A bufferless 556 gun with folding stock is a much better option Imo. Much smaller. Pdw or pcc is another option.

Also you can carry one of these Glocks with USW in a holster or even in the inside pocket of a standard fleece or on sling or whatever. Not much bigger or bulkier than the pistol alone but massively extends range and accuracy.

Any of those guns I would feel confident going into many situations with and they are also very concealable and fairly easy to carry. Extremely easy to stow and access in vehicle.

Brn-180 556 10.5"
Mp5k
Glock 9mm or 10mm in b&t usw brace

4EA724A6-6D42-4474-8734-C3F07AC4C93C.png

• ilikegunspdx
• Feb 27, 2023

View attachment 1400625 View attachment 1400626 View attachment 1400627

Not saying those types of weapons aren't useful - they are. But the OP is about responding to an active shooter with a long gun. Just saying if an incident is taking place and someone sees you running around with an MP5, odds are they're gonna think you're the shooter.

Regarding the video, completely agree that his choice of backpack and gun combo isn't what I'd go for. Bufferless would be the way to go for AR patten, and if I have a backpack gun it's going to be in a bag I can deploy from rapidly like the Vertx Commuter. In that use case the bag is the holster, and should be treated as such.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

... Just saying if an incident is taking place and someone sees you running around with an MP5, odds are they're gonna think you're the shooter.

That's why always remember to bring the white cowboy hat.

Good guy:

Bad guy:

 

[asiparks]

You hear shots and run in to address the threat.
Whatever scenario is running through your imagination, it won't happen like that.
First question: Do you have any idea what the "threat" is ?
That person you see holding a gun-, bad guy ? Another responding armed citizen ? Off duty /UC LEO ? One of many bad guys ? Another good guy holding the rifle he's just taken from the bad guy he's already shot ?
How do you avoid getting misidentified as the bad guy ? Shout out your NWFA screen name as you move through the building ? try to look like a "good guy"?
Have you ever cleared a building the size of a school or department store, any idea of the layout, back passages, dead ends ?
When someone shoots at you will you retain an icy calm disposition and drop the guy with a precise head shot or will you empty your mag as fast as you can in vaguely the right direction, sending rounds through windows walls and what/whom ever might be behind them?
Are you a decent shot ? I do pretty well, relaxed slow fire at 15 yards with no one shooting at me and normal levels of adrenaline. Under fire though ?

Everyone wants to do the right thing, you might well come out ahead, but there's more likelihood you'll add confusion, possibly be responsible for adding to the death toll of innocents and likely get killed or injured.
Certainly arsing around back and forth to your car to pick up a long gun doesn't seem like a good idea if every second counts...
As far as legality of using a rifle? It will be absolutely the last, tiniest of your worries.

 

[titsonritz]

Just cause I use a stall doesn't mean I sit down!! Hahaha.

All the other guys in the restroom probably think less of me. I don't care. Haha.

Just put the seat down for them.

 

[titsonritz]

theres no way even the best holster this is comfortable to carry EDC, especially in summer. How does one even use a urinal BTW?
View attachment 1396030

By having it of center slightly. I've carried two G19s (one LH and one RH) and a spare mag in the middle at 12 o'clock AIWB with shorts and T-shirt down in CA during summer and could still pee standing up.

AIWB is superior to all other ways but its just not comfortable, Ive never got over that part. I guess its an individual thing.

I've worn my Dale Fricke AA for 48 hours straight, including driving and sleeping with it on, it was no problem.

 

[jaysu]

Thanks for the responses. I'm the OP, and I've really resisted responding because the responses have started drifting into implying I'm some misguided idiot fantasizing about playing hero.

Oh boy. Sigh. I've tried to outline in clear, no uncertain terms two aspects of the inquiry:

1. focus on the legality of the use of a rifle in public, assuming sound tactics
2. to highlight that this is a thought experiment that tests boundary scenarios (in my follow-up post)

I do appreciate the great callouts from most posters, throughout. Having been held up at gunpoint before, I'm the first to tell you that pulling a gun out in self defense is not always the best option. I was not carrying, but even if I were, it wouldn't have made a difference - or been prudent in that case. Story for another day.

What this thread did articulate for me, was the risks of self-defense anywhere except outside the home - regardless of firearm. And even more so the rifle. It reinforces - for me - that in an urban environment, concealed carry pistol is the preferable, but still last, resort. But the use of a rifle is fraught with even more tradeoffs.

Objectively, this goes against a lot of the marketing and rhetoric of the industry, where there's an inordinate amount of emphasis, resources, and attention on the rifle as a self-defense weapon out in the open urban environment. It just seems like the usage of a rifle far more drawbacks, from misidentification to theft of firearm stored in car, in excess of the benefits in public or out-in-the-open situations.

Whatever your takeaway, I do appreciate the conversation and input from all of ya'll.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Thanks for the responses. I'm the OP, and I've really resisted responding because the responses have started drifting into implying I'm some misguided idiot fantasizing about playing hero.

Oh boy. Sigh. I've tried to outline in clear, no uncertain terms two aspects of the inquiry:

1. focus on the legality of the use of a rifle in public, assuming sound tactics
2. to highlight that this is a thought experiment that tests boundary scenarios (in my follow-up post)

I do appreciate the great callouts from most posters, throughout. Having been held up at gunpoint before, I'm the first to tell you that pulling a gun out in self defense is not always the best option. I was not carrying, but even if I were, it wouldn't have made a difference - or been prudent in that case. Story for another day.

What this thread did articulate for me, was the risks of self-defense anywhere except outside the home - regardless of firearm. And even more so the rifle. It reinforces - for me - that in an urban environment, concealed carry pistol is the preferable, but still last, resort. But the use of a rifle is fraught with even more tradeoffs.

Objectively, this goes against a lot of the marketing and rhetoric of the industry, where there's an inordinate amount of emphasis, resources, and attention on the rifle as a self-defense weapon out in the open urban environment. It just seems like the usage of a rifle far more drawbacks, from misidentification to theft of firearm stored in car, in excess of the benefits in public or out-in-the-open situations.

Whatever your takeaway, I do appreciate the conversation and input from all of ya'll.

Using a bufferless pistol AR compared to a long buffered AR rifle loses some energy but not that much (depending on barrel length). For example 12.5" sig virtus = 13% loss of energy compared to 16" AR. But the form factor and overall size of the gun is much smaller than trying to stow or conceal a rifle. Similarly a 10.5% brn-180 is very small but only loses 22% of energy compared to regular AR. Where the losses get huge is 7.5" AR pistol at almost 40%. Either the 12.5" or 10.5" bufferless can be carried in a sling pack, or on a sling under coat etc. meaning you don't have to leave it in the vehicle, and can be concealed if needed.

16" ar15 = 31.5" length and no loss in energy

12.5" sig virtus .223 (no buffer) = 22" length and 13% loss in energy

10.5" brn -180 .223 (no buffer) = 18" length
and 22% loss in energy

 

[bradsteen]

Thanks for the responses. I'm the OP, and I've really resisted responding because the responses have started drifting into implying I'm some misguided idiot fantasizing about playing hero.

Oh boy. Sigh. I've tried to outline in clear, no uncertain terms two aspects of the inquiry:

1. focus on the legality of the use of a rifle in public, assuming sound tactics
2. to highlight that this is a thought experiment that tests boundary scenarios (in my follow-up post)

I do appreciate the great callouts from most posters, throughout. Having been held up at gunpoint before, I'm the first to tell you that pulling a gun out in self defense is not always the best option. I was not carrying, but even if I were, it wouldn't have made a difference - or been prudent in that case. Story for another day.

What this thread did articulate for me, was the risks of self-defense anywhere except outside the home - regardless of firearm. And even more so the rifle. It reinforces - for me - that in an urban environment, concealed carry pistol is the preferable, but still last, resort. But the use of a rifle is fraught with even more tradeoffs.

Objectively, this goes against a lot of the marketing and rhetoric of the industry, where there's an inordinate amount of emphasis, resources, and attention on the rifle as a self-defense weapon out in the open urban environment. It just seems like the usage of a rifle far more drawbacks, from misidentification to theft of firearm stored in car, in excess of the benefits in public or out-in-the-open situations.

Whatever your takeaway, I do appreciate the conversation and input from all of ya'll.

Thanks for posting the topic - it's a good conversation to have. Agreed, there is a lot of "tacticool" marketing out there by major manufacturers, and there are lots of drawbacks to consider if storing one in a vehicle, particularly in urban environments where police response times to shootings is generally fast.

However, I think in rural environments a truck gun or backpack gun might make more sense. Law enforcement may take 20+ min to respond to a shooting simply due to distance. You still have potential to be misidentified as the shooter, and probably more likely to run into another civilian carrying a concealed pistol, but the greater law enforcement response time might tilt the scales more in favor of having a long gun in a vehicle.

Also, rural environments have 4-legged predators to consider as well as the 2-legged variety - cougars, bobcats, bears, wolves, etc. That alone would be a better reason to have one, because in a rural environment you're far more likely to get attacked by a wild animal than to find yourself in an active shooter situation.

 

[The Heretic]

Using a bufferless pistol AR compared to a long buffered AR rifle loses some energy but not that much (depending on barrel length). For example 12.5" sig virtus = 13% loss of energy compared to 16" AR. But the form factor and overall size of the gun is much smaller than trying to stow or conceal a rifle. Similarly a 10.5% brn-180 is very small but only loses 22% of energy compared to regular AR. Where the losses get huge is 7.5" AR pistol at almost 40%. Either the 12.5" or 10.5" bufferless can be carried in a sling pack, or on a sling under coat etc. meaning you don't have to leave it in the vehicle, and can be concealed if needed.

16" ar15 = 31.5" length and no loss in energy

12.5" sig virtus .223 (no buffer) = 22" length and 13% loss in energy

10.5" brn -180 .223 (no buffer) = 18" length
and 22% loss in energy

View attachment 1402460

For short barrels with rifle cartridges, I prefer cartridges made for that purpose - e.g., 7.62x39 or .300 BO

For a shorter OAL, I prefer bullpups. there are a number outfits out there starting to come out with bullpup setups for an AR action that is bufferless.

 

[Nosferatu]

OFFICIAL FOLDAR

FOLDAR IS A FOLDING AR15 UPPER AVAILABLE IN .223 WYLDE, 556 NATO, AND 300 BLACKOUT. CAN BE ADDED TO COMPLETE LOWERS, BILLET AND MILSPEC.

www.foldar.com

 

[DAG1995]

Some weird concerns by posters here, like justifying use of deadly force against an active shooter in the event that you grab a firearm, meet the threat, and engage the threat. For reference, I'm not a lawyer but I am a firearms instructor licensed through the Oregon Department of Public Safety Standards & Training and the Washington Criminal Justice Training Commission. The curriculums I teach are approved by the licensing bodies for Police in both states, and in Washington are specifically signed off by the AG.

Oregon and Washington laws are worded differently but say the same thing.

ORS 161.219, Section 3 says: "...a person is not justified in using deadly physical force upon another person unless the person reasonably believes that the other person is using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person."

You do not need to be in immediate fear of your life to use deadly physical force against another person. You simply need to reasonably believe that that person is using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person.

If you're stowing groceries in your vehicle and you hear several gun shots ring out from the store you were just in, you grab a rifle from your vehicle or your concealed carry and return to the store, you see a man dressed in all black with a balaclava and an AR-15 pointing his rifle and firing down the aisles, you are well within your legal rights to engage that perceived threat.