Too many carry guns?

[leadcounsel]

Carrying a gun without a round in the tube is about the dumbest thing one can do. Closely followed by apedix carry.

Stress and fast developing situations is no time to fumble around trying to chamber or manipulate a saftey.

Really? So there is *nothing* dumber than carrying a gun for defense, but making the decision to 100% eliminate any possible chance for an AD/ND?

I carry on an empty chamber in certain specific circumstances. I guess I'm dumb or doing the dumbest thing a person can do. Thanks for letting me know.

PS - You could probably fill a warehouse of bodies from people who were shot and injured or killed with their own gun due to an AD/ND that would have been 100% impossible if the chamber were empty. It's ironic if one carries a gun to save a life, yet shoots ones' self due to poor choices/training/luck. Easy to eliminate that and yet still have a self-defense tool at the ready which (even unloaded) will likely diffuse most situations (statistics prove this many times over by the number of self defense uses with a gun where zero shots are fired) and which can be made ready in <1 second.

AIWB negligent Discharge:

Shooter NDs himself at range:

Security guard ND

The following guns were brought to market and later recalled for failing drop/shake or firing while on safe tests:
Taurus (9 models), Sig P320, FN FNS series, Honor Guard, Remington 700 (rifle), and quite possibly others. So "relying" on mechanical safeties and designs might get you signed up for the Darwin award.

 

[bbbass]

"Why does C3 create such a storm of controversy? Critics argue it is too slow, that it can't be used under many circumstances, and the myths flow like water."

"The speed of presentation can also be affected by such things as type of holster, where the firearm is carried, and so on. Yet we don't see a big fight over IWB versus OWB, or thumb-break versus open top, or appendix carry versus carry at 4:30, although each of those can impact the speed of presentation just as much or more than chamber empty versus chamber loaded."

Food For Thoughts Quotes are from an article by Dr. David A. Armstrong in the Thinking Gunfighter blog.

I can't agree with the premise in the second quote.

If one looks at 3:00 carry or 4:00 carry, there is little to no diff between IWB an OWB when the cover garment is loose. The biggest difference is needing the off hand to pull up the shirt for IWB. There is only a slight time difference in draw from what I can tell... A well practiced IWB carrier is just about as fast as any. Maybe a little more diff if the shirt is tucked in. Thumb break holsters generally would be no difference at all... no impact. These will primarily be worn in the 3-4 o'clock position and the thumb breaks the tab open on the down stroke to grip. Appendix carry might be slower on a guy with a big gut, and virtually anybody sitting down. Otherwise appendix carry is about as fast as any IWB draw, maybe faster. Just don't shoot yer one-eye out!!



Regarding carry on an empty chamber, to each his own. Might work out if one doesn't need to shoot immediately. I'd like to see some figures on what the time differential during a quick engagement/emergency is... there has to be one... draw and present vs draw, rack slide, then present. We certainly don't practice this during IDPA match. I do know from experience that racking the slide to clear a malfunction costs a few seconds so I wouldn't expect it to be any different in a sudden gunfight. Safe carry aside, I've seen a number of real videos where the self-defender forgot to rack his slide and got shot, and others that got shot because they were busy racking the slide.

 

[dcfranzen]

I'd like to see some figures on what the time differential during a quick engagement/emergency is... there has to be one... draw and present vs draw, rack slide, then present.

Here is a YouTube video by an IDF - Sp Ops guy with the speed figures your interested in...

And here is another...

 

[44s rock]

I would add that there are disadvantages and risks to carrying w/o one in the pipe, as well as behind the back carry, and maybe appendix carry IDK. However, not saying you did this, but criticism to the point of calling people ignorant, and saying certain practices are "dumb" is, IMO, distasteful at the least. And I thought I was the least tactful person in the room.

It wasn't I that made the comment, you might redirect your criticism to the original writer! To each his own as to how they want to carry, it's their life!

 

[bbbass]

It wasn't I that made the comment, you might redirect your criticism to the original writer! To each his own as to how they want to carry, it's their life!

You might re-read my comment. I clearly stated:
"However, not saying you did this,"

Your comment was adding to what the original writer said... that gave me an opportunity to add on with an objection to what he was saying... sorry for your feeling insulted by that, but I note that you did not object to what he was saying, you added on. So did I. <shrug>

 

[bbbass]

Here is a YouTube video by an IDF - Sp Ops guy with the speed figures your interested in...

And here is another...

IDF guy lost .5 sec by racking the slide. I could have done without all the proselytizing but I managed to fast forward and find what I wanted. Note that this is a trained spec ops guy, not your average Joe Self Defender. I would imagine that the average Joe Defender is going to be slower and lose more time. Also note that .5 sec is a lot of time in an emergency type gunfight.

The guy in the second vid was incredibly slow in the first place... condition 1 draw to shot of 1.8secs is not good. Then, he lost 1.0 seconds off that when racking the slide one handed, which one would have to do to engage an assailant at an arms length. I note that he fumbled the racking on his holster and had to look down to do it... not good to look away from your assailant. Beyond the time lost, and considering that an arms length or closer engagement is very prevalent, I'm concerned that firing from retention position after a one-handed draw is going to be near impossible for most defenders.

I don't care how people carry... everyone gets to make their own decision. But for me, carrying in condition 3 is more risky than carrying your typical striker-fired pistol. (I don't carry a 1911 in condition one because I worry about the safety being clicked off somehow... that may not be realistic on my part, but personally I won't chance it.)

Videos of real gunfights don't lie... people die because they forget to rack the slide in an emergency. People die because they don't have time to rack the slide, or fumble around trying to get it done. When your firearm is needed instantly, even fractions of seconds count.

My position is that an AD/ND down the leg won't kill you... but the time lost on the draw and fumbling around to rack the slide can get you killed. YMMV

 

[rick benjamin]

Even though I am a devout christian, the USMC imprinted a few descriptive words that persist to this day.
Lots of self-annointed bubblegumming experts expressing be all end all opinions and-or observations.
SSgt Gerry Strohmeier "you might be right, but I kinda bubblegumming doubt it".
The Israeli method vs that of the American method? How un-American can those Israelis get?

 

[User 1234]

This thread sure went to feces.

 

[revjen45]

Note: All caveats regarding capsized kayaks over the Challenger Deep are invoked.

1) "I'm very familiar with every gun I own so I'm not worried about it being a striker fired, SA or DA."
Yup.
2) Strive to make your first round count.
Practice does make perfect.
I saw an article in which a Gunsite instructor said the most important single thing to learn is a head shot out of the holster.
3) "As to too many carry guns?"
"Too many" as applied to guns in any context is an oxymoron. It is an imaginary concept, like the square root of -1.
4) "As far as cops carrying 1911"s..."
The 1911 is a GREAT gun in the hands of somebody who has gone to the trouble to learn to use it. That does not apply to most cop larva who may never have held a gun in their lives. No gun is safe in the hands of an ignoramus, but the chances for an ignoramus-induced mishap are higher with a 1911. Urban police agencies have to accommodate people who have never lived outside of The City, or held a gun, and don't like them.
5) Israeli carry
The new nation of Israel found itself with an eclectic array of sidearms, each with its own unique manual of arms, to equip its army and militia. Most military establishments aren't too hot on Cond.1 carry anyhow, and Cond.3 worked for everything.
6) "Ignorant and novice gun owners do not mean anything other than Springfield knows how to market to that audience."
What's wrong with marketing to noobs? BTW, in my class @ FAS in the final exercise the best score was had by a lady with an XD and she wasn't the only XD there. She was no noob, indicating that the XD platform works across the board as far as experience.
7) Response to Post #61
"Carrying a gun without a round in the tube is about the dumbest thing one can do. Closely followed by apedix carry."
" I guess I'm dumb or doing the dumbest thing a person can do. Thanks for letting me know."
Everybody has opinions, and it's rude to make ad hominem attacks on the basis of differences of opinion. Despite my own omniscience on the subject of firearms I am far too gracious and humble to dictate to anybody else .