Too many carry guns?

[bbbass]

As far as cops carrying 1911"s , some podunct department that is to cheap/poor to issue weapons is not a solid defense. Is the same reason you will see Springfield xd in a cops holsters....they are officer purchases. Their ignorance in firearm choices do not prove anything other than their ignorance and poor department leadership.

Please give citation for your claim "There is a reason 95%+ police departments and LEAs use a firearm without a safety." If you can't, or won't, you're just blowing smoke.

I don't think any LEO or anybody else needs to "defend" their choice of weapon. Your opinion and choice does not justify calling others "ignorant" or accusing departments of poor leadership.

You like what you like... perfect. You want to call names and criticize other's choices... not so good.

 

[nk02442]

Approved IE podunk police departments that doesn't give a bubblegum what they carry because they don't pay for it. A large portion of departments fall under this.

You avoided the whole point. Show me legit medium to large size agency that actually do testing/trials before a selection is made.

The simple fact is they have been weighed, tested and measured ; and found wanting. Ignorant and novice gun owners do not mean anything other than Springfield knows how to market to that audience.

Want to take it a step further.. show me a federal agency who uses them. Ya know one where they actually have to test them in accordance with an RFP and the findings are public/protestable. I'll be waiting.

 

[nk02442]

Please give citation for your claim "There is a reason 95%+ police departments and LEAs use a firearm without a safety." If you can't, or won't, you're just blowing smoke.

I don't think any LEO or anybody else need to "defend" their choice of weapon. Your opinion and choice does not justify calling others "ignorant" or accusing departments of poor leadership.

You like what you like... perfect. You want to call names and criticize other's choices... not so good.

The reason is self evident. Virtually everyone outside of professional shooters or full time tac team/ socom/jsoc boys does not have enough training time to subconsciously manipulate a saftey correctly under stress. It has resulted in numerous officer KIAs over the years with undertrained officers pannicking. He'll look at how many people getting shot when an officer meant to go for their taser, ON the opposite side of their belt.

Agenices will not pay for the time or materials to train people to that level unless gunfighting is a primary function of that job. So they spec equipment to mitigate that training deficiency. Most private citizens would be wise to follow that same principle as they are not immune to the same lack of training and could find themselves in the same situation.

 

[Kruel J]

Hmm, I remember stating something very similar a couple of months ago and was put on blast by a bunch of members around here. Heh, SA did a great job buying the HS2000 and stamping ridiculous garbage all over it. "Grip Zone" anyone?

 

[nk02442]

I actually had one of the first xd45s imported to the US. Was so excited as there was no large cap .45 at the time other than the g21 but this held like 14 or 15. It was one of the only guns I don't regret selling.

 

[bbbass]

The reason is self evident. Virtually everyone outside of professional shooters or full time tac team/ socom/jsoc boys does not have enough training time to subconsciously manipulate a saftey correctly under stress. It has resulted in numerous officer KIAs over the years with undertrained officers pannicking. He'll look at how many people getting shot when an officer meant to go for their taser, ON the opposite side of their belt.

Agenices will not pay for the time or materials to train people to that level unless gunfighting is a primary function of that job. So they spec equipment to mitigate that training deficiency. Most private citizens would be wise to follow that same principle as they are not immune to the same lack of training and could find themselves in the same situation.

Non-responsive... so, you admit you are blowing smoke.

Please show vids or other verified sources of officer KIA due to not being able to find thumb safety.

However, otherwise I agree with you. I would agree with the TASER confusion. That is available on video, and does indicate a lack of training to perform under pressure. From reports and officers I've spoken with, training is an issue. IMO departments need to do better for their officers. On the other hand, untrained private citizens is a travesty. We have 2nd Amendment rights, so we can carry, but many don't bother to get the simplest instruction, much less training for self-defense shooting.

 

[PNWguy]

You avoided the whole point. Show me legit medium to large size agency that actually do testing/trials before a selection is made.

The simple fact is they have been weighed, tested and measured ; and found wanting. Ignorant and novice gun owners do not mean anything other than Springfield knows how to market to that audience.

Or perhaps you simply aren't familiar with the agency process of selecting a firearm. It involves far more than the weapon itself being good enough; it also involves factory armorer certification availability and the manufacturer willing to support the local agency armorer with parts and training.

Springfield Armory refuses to do this. They do not focus on LE sales. Period. Doesn't mean their guns are garbage or that anyone that chooses one is ignorant.

I think there are better pistols for duty for various reasons, but I owned a full-size and a compact XD in .45 acp and they were fine pistols. I just liked the feel of my M&Ps better.

I now have an XDS 40 which I guarantee I can outshoot you with at 25yds. It is amazingly accurate for what it is.

I also know that at least one member of the local SWAT team carries the XDS9 as his deep cover pistol.

 

[MannyGlocks]

I often appendix carry.

I always have one in the Glock or S&W pipe.

My choice.

You don't find such a choice yours...?

No problem.

Your choice - My choice.

Easy.

 

[nk02442]

Local swat.. you mean a regular officer who has an extra bag in his patrol vechicle? Not very convincing if you ask me. No different than $12/hr cops who buy their own service piece

But yeah it's a training and budget issue. Undermanning alone prevents additional training time. The only ones who take it serious are the fed LEOs who have the budget and can take guys off the line.

To get the thread back on track, this is the reason to A. Train with the the same pistol or at least one with the same manual of arms and B. Get something without a saftey ( manual or grip). For the vast majority of shooters, it's the best choice to mitigate lack of training.

Most people aren't used to violence...they get excited ,panic ext. Criminal scum are used to violence and they are comfortable in that environment. The key is being able to stack the deck in your favor against someone who already has an advantage over you. It's really that simple.

 

[Kruel J]

Or perhaps you simply aren't familiar with the agency process of selecting a firearm. It involves far more than the weapon itself being good enough; it also involves factory armorer certification availability and the manufacturer willing to support the local agency armorer with parts and training.

Springfield Armory refuses to do this. They do not focus on LE sales. Period. Doesn't mean their guns are garbage or that anyone that chooses one is ignorant.

I think there are better pistols for duty for various reasons, but I owned a full-size and a compact XD in .45 acp and they were fine pistols. I just liked the feel of my M&Ps better.

I now have an XDS 40 which I guarantee I can outshoot you with at 25yds. It is amazingly accurate for what it is.

I also know that at least one member of the local SWAT team carries the XDS9 as his deep cover pistol.

I think you should take it easy on the "I guarantee I can out shoot you" comments.

 

[PNWguy]

I think you should take it easy on the "I guarantee I can out shoot you" comments.

You're offended by my comment that I can outshoot another forum member, yet no issue with that same member calling people stupid and ignorant in multiple posts.

Odd...

 

[Kruel J]

You're offended by my comment that I can outshoot another forum member, yet no issue with that same member calling people stupid and ignorant in multiple posts.

Odd...

Where did I say I was offended?

 

[dcfranzen]

The KISS principle seems most apt when it comes to carrying a concealed weapon.

Anyone else have such a revelation, or have you never forgotten this most basic of principles?

Now that we are back on track from the OP's POV, I second his KISS (Keep It Simple Shooters) principle when it comes to my CCW selection. That is why I selected a couple of my DAO S&W Gen3 pistols for concealed carry rather than the TDA models I've accumulated. My 3953 and 4053 choices fit my requirements for KISS perfectly.

 

[PNWguy]

Where did I say I was offended?

Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding your communications. I apologize for assuming.

 

[Pandaz3]

"knowing how they work" and competent manipulation durring a stressfully life and death situation are not the same thing. There is a reason 95%+ police departments and LEAs use a firearm without a safety.

I'll take my own stressful experiences into account when using a 1911, I don't carry one much but I did carry one in Vietnam. I have a G-33, M&P40C, XD40 SC M2 all with out safeties as my main squeeze. usually the G-33 would be BUG to the other two. I don't like safeties but I can use one competently, but thanks for your most learned concern.

 

[44s rock]

Carrying a gun without a round in the tube is about the dumbest thing one can do. Closely followed by apedix carry.

Stress and fast developing situations is no time to fumble around trying to chamber or manipulate a saftey.

I would add behind the back carry as well!

 

[bbbass]

I would add behind the back carry as well!

I would add that there are disadvantages and risks to carrying w/o one in the pipe, as well as behind the back carry, and maybe appendix carry IDK. However, not saying you did this, but criticism to the point of calling people ignorant, and saying certain practices are "dumb" is, IMO, distasteful at the least. And I thought I was the least tactful person in the room.

 

[PNWguy]

However, criticism to the point of calling people ignorant, and saying certain practices are "dumb" is, IMO, distasteful at the least. And I thought I was the least tactful person in the room.

Nope, you were easily out un-classed by one or two other individuals this time...

I don't get appendix carry.

1st, I'm fat, so putting a pistol there is going to aggravate my belly.

2nd, I was taught to never point my gun at anything I don't want to shoot. I'd put my junk pretty high up on the list of things I don't want to shoot...

 

[bbbass]

Nope, you were easily out un-classed by one or two other individuals this time...

I don't get appendix carry.

1st, I'm fat, so putting a pistol there is going to aggravate my belly.

2nd, I was taught to never point my gun at anything I don't want to shoot. I'd put my junk pretty high up on the list of things I don't want to shoot...

I'm with you, like, totally!!

 

[dcfranzen]

"Why does C3 create such a storm of controversy? Critics argue it is too slow, that it can't be used under many circumstances, and the myths flow like water."

"The speed of presentation can also be affected by such things as type of holster, where the firearm is carried, and so on. Yet we don't see a big fight over IWB versus OWB, or thumb-break versus open top, or appendix carry versus carry at 4:30, although each of those can impact the speed of presentation just as much or more than chamber empty versus chamber loaded."

Food For Thoughts Quotes are from an article by Dr. David A. Armstrong in the Thinking Gunfighter blog.