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Sometimes I believe this issue to be overthought and far too consuming of ones time and effort. The fact of the matter is that social unrest is possible and defending your home, family and self is a real possibility. Were I one of the three $640 million winners, I may have a bomb shelter built into the side of a mountain as a home. As it is, I am the general manager of an office furniture installation company and while my family is fed and we do OK, we are not "wealthy" and we must live in an urban area, at least suburban. My point is that I have food, water, water filtration methods and the like stashed away. I live in NE Portland. If something so severe happened as to warrant mass fleeing into the wilderness, your "BOL" could be swarming with thousands of people by the time you get there. I have not purchased $2,500 HAZMAT suits for my family, nor will I. We could live without opening the door of our home for almost a year. My point is, if you are a resident of an urban area, my opinion is that staying in your home until things "die down" is the best option. If you are forced to flee your home, the circumstances will be unknown and "preparation" could be for naught. In the end, do what you must and what comforts you. If I am "bedded down" in my home and my unprepared neighbors come trying to take what is mine, they can have it, bullets first. If a nuclear warhead exploded just over our skyline, well, it's probably too late by then. The idea of escaping the city during total chaos with all of your SHTF goods is a joke. Though I believe that there is reason to worry here and abroad, a lot of money was spent on fallout shelters in the '50's that were never used. I guess we all have our level of preparedness and that is OK. I must say that having 5.56 and .308 guns are a good idea because they are so widespread, but the idea that the Army will be rationing ammo to us or that we will be taking magazines off of the bodies of our own troops is kind of silly. But then again, as I said, if and when something that drastic happens, who knows what the circumstances will be. Kip
 
Why on earth would anyone assume they could source ammo from the Military? If total SHTF to the point we are all running for the hills the Military will be gone. Not that there is any of it around here anyway. Salem has a Nat Guard Air base with a dozen copters and a small motor pool. Woodburn has a Squad of 82nd Infintry. But for the most part the closest large collection of troops is up at JBML and thats nearly 2.5 hours away at freeway speeds and theres not enough troops to cover the ground between there and Salem in any fantasy.

And the first group into the very few armories will cart off anything that isn't concreted into the building. And those will most likely be the troops connected to that armory. As to resupply from Federal agents Local Police. Again they will be gone vaporized into the masses. Without a pay check neither is going to be working. Sure you might be able to pickup a mag or two of ammo from the local cop you just ambushed but it won't be laying there waiting for you to come along and find it.

What I want to know is what are the rules of engagement in this situation? I mean do you wait for the other guy (remember he's not a bad guy he's just like you) to shoot first (in which case you might as well not bother your dead) or do you kill everyone you see as soon as you see them. In which case you are most certainly the bad guy. Granted if your sitting on your front porch and a mob of people with burning torches come up your drawbridge. You are most likely going to need to shoot first.

I just can't figure out how all this is supposed to play out. And before you poo poo me as a non believer you best help me figure it out cause I might start shooting 600 yards before you can see me. I don't play with little black guns I hunt with 30-06 and have an ample supply of ammo. So you really don't want me all nervous shooting at anything I see moving down the end of the street.
 
Cross useage for ammo on long arms is easier. A 12 ga shell will fit in any 12ga shotgun. Same with a 5.56, 308, etc. But with a sidearm, my buddy's H&K magazine will not fit my Sig and vise a versa. If one runs dry, the other can't just toss him a mag so he can reengage. One would have to reload his mags while the other engages alone while expending twice the ammo until his buddy is done reloading and engaged again.
A baretta 92/92fs/m9 magazing will fit a sig 226/229 with a little cutting and filing. The sig when tested to find an m9 pistol was said to be using baretta magazines for ease of function during trials


Now my self I own mostly .40 cal pistols, 12gage, .357, and 5.56, and the distance rifle .300 win mag, I can get all that ammo at the local hardwear store, that was why I chose what I did, and my father and I both own a few compatable mags/guns, since he lives with me it makes a lot of sence to do it that way
 
Handguns are important as an alternative to a rifle due to thier size and weight but they are a PDW and cannot replace a rifle. If a person forsees a Blackhawk Down situation on the immeadiate horizion I strongly suggest they dinky dao the heck outa there before they have need of thier handgun.
Psuedo military rifles are in Mil. calibers some have interchangable magazines some don't, just have plenty of rifle mags handy.
If the situation is reduced to 2 or more guys fighting for thier lives with handguns only and they personaly don't have enough mags then thier problems started Way Before they even drew thier firearms.
 
Yeah Mark,I always wondered what difference it made what the military had,cause you and I aint getting any of it.
I would guess that the NatGuard guys will definitely take home what they need first,then other agencies will attempt to take the rest.You may be able to buy some from them,but I doubt it.
 
My vote is consolidating multi-purpose weapons. I have a 12 gauge from which I can shoot birdshot, 00 buck, or slugs. A .357 that can shoot .38's and defend my family or drop a deer, etc etc. In my not so humble opinion, when (not if) we end up in a shtf environment the display rather than the actual firing of a firearm will be enough to deter most acts of violence or theft. It makes more sense to me to have something practical rather than tacticool. Glocks and Sigs and AR's fire a lot of rounds fast but are they also going to be able to take down game and put food on the table?
 
Standardizing weapons among a group:

Would it be necessary? Maybe.


Would it be prudent? Yep.


Let's just say I don't think you would go wrong by standardizing all of your rifles, pistols, gear, etc.
 
In my opinion, the reason for going with military ammo is that A) fate pairs you with a G.I. on your way out. B) you come across a recently deceased G.I. or enemy soldier (Red Dawn situation or band of Brothers D-day scenario). C) You get in a firefight with G.I. or enemy, You come out the victor and take their remaining ammo, or your not so lucky and they benefit from your ammo (not Ideal but could happen if your not careful). Also the other reason is that so many other people have the same ammo since the military has it, popularity, price of some of the military ammo is cheap. A good ammo choice is .22 LR, yes it may not be a armor piercing but I have heard stories of Native Americans that hunt with it and take down deer with a one shot, drop. The other reason is that it is cheap and light, meaning you can pack a lot of it and put more lead down range.

Remember it pays to put more lead down range than the other because it can make you look like a bigger force to be reckoned with. Another plus .22 LR rounds are quieter out of the barrel of a rifle.
 
My vote is consolidating multi-purpose weapons. I have a 12 gauge from which I can shoot birdshot, 00 buck, or slugs. A .357 that can shoot .38's and defend my family or drop a deer, etc etc. In my not so humble opinion, when (not if) we end up in a shtf environment the display rather than the actual firing of a firearm will be enough to deter most acts of violence or theft. It makes more sense to me to have something practical rather than tacticool. Glocks and Sigs and AR's fire a lot of rounds fast but are they also going to be able to take down game and put food on the table?

Is the last question a rhetorical one?

Why wouldn't an AR in 223 take a deer? Or my 10mm Glock,my 9mm Glock,or a 40S&W Glock?
My 1911 in 45 ACP will kill a deer if necessary.
Any gun will.Well maybe not a 25acp,but still.

Yes a 357 is a formidable round,but most others mentioned in this thread will do the same job. May not have the range,but they will do the job.

And if you don't have at least one shot gun ,you deserve to go hungry.
 
Lots of opinions on this subject and it is very interesting to ponder. Honestly, there is no easy answer to this question. At first glance this seams like a great idea, after all having everyone using the same type of equipment, ammunition and gear is not a bad thing at all! In fact, there is a reason why the military still sports the M16 and M4....although an argument can be made that there are way better calibers and more modern rifles, the interchangeable platforms from rifle to rifle is something the military never wants to loose. There can't be a "transition" to a newer rifle, it has to be a complete overhaul of their ENTIRE PLATFORM from M16 to M4....and if they do it they want it to include their light machine guns as well (hence the Marine Corps' decision to replace the M249 SAW with the M27 IAR)

M27+IAR+b.jpg

So, back to the topic at hand. Lets get down to the meat and potatoes...

If you have the money to dump on Sigs and AR-15s, then you better have the money to dump on freeze-dried food, water filters, antibiotics and other provisions. I, personally, would rather have a mix of calibers, rifles, pistols and shotguns but years worth of food and water than matching sets and no other provisions. Seriously, I think this is a priority issue than anything. Are you too focused on the toys and tools than the entire aspect of survival? Chances are you will be scrapping by with whatever gear you have with you or find. Heck who knows, maybe the guy knowing how to make long bows will be the next warlord of the greater United States! But I digress...

It's always good to have two or more of anything when it comes to SHTF/TEOWAWKI preps. Things break or get left and lost all the time. If you train a person on one firearm they can pick up any firearm and all your consolidated ammunition can be distributed to any group member at will with no logistical headache of caliber count. Nevertheless, you need to prioritize your provision procurement accordingly. If your budget can support such a costly move then GO FOR IT! If not, then I think you have to weigh the risk of being without food versus not being able to interchange magazines with your fellow group members.

Good luck and don't get stuck in the planning. My advice is get a gun and ammo then move on to the next item on the list. You can always upgrade later, but the point is to have something. If someone was having a credible threat against their life but could only afford a , would you suggest them put that Glock on layaway or would you agree that the hi-point now is better than the Glock later?

*Riot Out*
 
It all comes down to your tactical posture. Laying down cover fire and blasting tangos from 500 yards is one way to go, but there are more practical options. In a real SHTF scenario (as it has been pointed out), there is no resupply. Ammo is gold my friends and letting rounds slip means your position is compromised. I know we all love to think of ourselves as hardcore heroes that are blasting through the woods while mortars explode and bad guys get cut to pieces. We are the product of "Black Hawk Down" and all kinds of Navy SEAL video game crap. In reality, the hero is the guy that doesn't get waxed. If you don't want to get waxed you better not skyline yourself. In a fortified position, you need a truck load of whatever ammo you need and replacement parts for your weapons. Bodies piled up around your property will be a dead give away that something valuable exists inside, so it's probably better to avoid creating a literal scene. If you bug out, you better get really swift and silent really quickly. Without fortification or support, never initiate contact and always move under the cover of darkness. Save rounds. Hide. Stay alive. Choose weapons systems and calibers that you are comfortable with. If you come across dead combatants with spare rounds, guess what? They'll also have their weapon platforms. No one is going to lift their primary and secondary without snatching up all available mags. To sum it up, survival and victory doesn't rest in preparation alone, but your ability to adapt. Better to be a silent and alive than loud and dead.
 
You can store food for as little as $5 a week, I actually have a list of items to buy in bulk, I found it interesting. Weapons aren't everything, but something to protect your family is an added bonus, my own mother who dislikes firearms owns a shotgun, my kid sister who hasn't handled a firearm since I use to shoot bb guns in the barn recently returned home from Ill. And is looking for her first gun. I own many firearms and know food, and barter goods are just as important as 2000rnds of 5.56, 1000rounds .40cal, 1000 12gage, and heirloom seeds, and farm animals
 
Individual prep is only good for short-term survival: Human long-term survival is tied to group membership.

Weapons are only one part of the equation. You need other stuff and skills, both to continue to exist as an individual, and to contribute to a group.

The military holds the largest stocks of ammo in the US. I know, the closest to us is at Lewis-McChord, but other agencies maintain stocks too: Did you note that ICE just contracted with ATK for 450 million rounds of .40 S&W, and 140 million of 5.56mm? (I wonder if this may be why small pistol and small rifle primers have disappeared from Bi-Mart and Wholesale Sports?)

One other reason which hasn't been mentioned: Almost all of us are members of the great "Constitutional Militia" (you know, that one mentioned in 2A). As members, we come armed with something at least compatible to what the Army uses at the time. That could be .75 Brown Bess, or 30-06, or a phased-plasma rifle. "Militia" is not a popular term, but it is the appropriate one to describe community members banding together for common defense: It is Constitutional, whether the Govmnt or the Main Stream Media thinks so or not.

There is a discussion ongoing in another thread which more broadly addresses "prepping", to include weapons & ammo as part of overall readiness.

Cheers!
 
Glocks and Sigs and AR's fire a lot of rounds fast but are they also going to be able to take down game and put food on the table?

Yes. My AR10 shoots just as accurate as any rifle you or I own otherwise (unless you have a specific built long gun for over 1000 meters, in which case my AR10 lacks that range). The .308 will kill any animal on this continent at range. My Sig P220 will kill anything on this continent if I am within 25 yards (much further than that and things start to deteriorate).

I do agree with the comments to standardize rounds and weapon systems within your group.

For hand guns I feel it smart to standardize into 2 caliber choices, those calibers being .357 and .45 acp. With the .357 you use a wheel gun so that you can shoot .38 special and .357. Go with a .45 in a autoloader, .45 is super common and it packs a huge punch at 230 grains of +P. Every single caliber should have at a minimum of 1000 rounds of ammo on location (both bug in and out). While that may seem like either a lot (average person) or not enough (Doomsday Preppers...hahaha), I think it is a smart starting point. If each person in the party has 2 guns and 3000 rounds you have a decent protective load and pleanty of ammo for trade (trade will be huge).

For long arms I feel that standardizing weapon systems is a smart deal. I like the AR platform. Eugene Stoner built a highly modular system and it can be had in calibers that are damn good and are common. The .308 is the round of choice, imho. It has been dissected and put back together by every long range shooter the world has ever known (exageration but you get the point). It will take down a moose, bear or Elk. It ofcoarse is more than enough for personal defense. I have a AR10 and keep my 16" barrel upper on the thing 99.9% of the time. If I feel the need to go long range, 1 minute tops and I have a gun that will shoot <1000 meters. I just slap on the heavy barrel upper and load up the magazines with the long range projectiles. You can not really do that with any other weapon platform. I think a good starting point for Rifle rounds is 3000 rounds per caliber and weapon. 5 people in a group with 3k each. That is a good starting point.

I decided on the AR10 because it uses the M1A magazine (in a pinch). It is the standard for .308 AR style assault rifles. It is built in the US with good quality parts.

If I was going to get a second caliber it would be the 5.56. Pleantiful, light, fast shooting, accurate, fast and will get the job done. Again the AR platform if I was going this route.
 
Yes. My AR10 shoots just as accurate as any rifle you or I own otherwise (unless you have a specific built long gun for over 1000 meters, in which case my AR10 lacks that range). The .308 will kill any animal on this continent at range.

Uhhh,sorry to rain on your parade,but the 308 is more than capable at 100 yards.
Maybe you aren't?;):s0084:

Anyway,most on here know that we need to have food stores and barter goods as well as firearms.So we're just talking firearms here.

My thoughts are a compound should have some ARs and either Glocks,for their abundance,or the Beretta 92/m9.At least for back ups.
Use whatever rifles and pistols you want or can afford,but having the most popular guns will make it easier to get parts and ammo for them.

Oh and for the food stores guys,standardizing your guns and ammo doesn't really have to get into your food budget,to make changes
 
Uhhh,sorry to rain on your parade,but the 308 is more than capable at 100 yards.
Maybe you aren't?;):s0084:

Add another 0 there, chief. Plus you can feel free to come show me how MY AR10 works out past 1000 meters. I am sure that my 1-4 Triji with a 1 moa green dot in a #4 german crosshairs would love to see it as well. Ofcoarse the 16 inch barrel doesn't really help the cause either. If you start changing out the optics then it is no longer MY AR10. Sorry for being honest with my rifles capabilities.

However the .308 round is more than capable of it. Hence the reason I went on to explain why I like the interchangability of the AR platform. Slap on a 20+ inch heavy barrel with a good SB Optic and the AR is a fine rig for over 1000 meters. I would probably change out my stock as well, jmho.

The first is the AR10 in question. The Target photo was done at 100 meters with 147 grain FMJBT off of my sleeping pad on a fold up table. That is decent enough for me.

AR10.jpg

Tight Group.jpg
 
Every NatGuard Armory has a Lock-up with firearms for all of their personnel. (M-16/M-4s, M9s, a couple of 249s or 240Bs, and the occasional .50 machine gun or Mk19 grenade launcher.) What they don't have at almost all of them is ammunition. That's all stored at a much more secure location, with plans in existence to distribute it rapidly and safely should the S hit the F and communication is still working properly. Unless you know where that location is, and can somehow access it through what will be an armed-to-the-teeth group of highly trained and well-equipped military, then you're better off finding ammo at the nearest redneck's house than trying to get anything from an Armory. Even many of the soldiers that do manage to get to their duty station at the NG armory will find their combat gear isn't worth a damn until their chain of command gets orders from higher to distribute the weapons and the ammo once that gets there.

As said in posts above, most off-base military and police will immediately dissolve into the population. They have their own families and homes that are more important to them. If you're scavenging Fallout3-style for .32 ACP rounds for your "Hunting rifle" don't expect to find a few sitting in every third file cabinet. Best have on hand what you'll need, (which won't be anywhere near as much as you need for one round of Call of Duty.) and stay home. If you need more than a couple hundred rounds, you're going to die. Sorry.

How many firefights are ya'all expecting to get into? How many of those are you expecting to survive?
 

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