Standardization of weapons and ammo in a SHTF scenario.

[pdx lefty]

"If someone was having a credible threat against their life but could only afford a hi-point, would you suggest them put that Glock on layaway or would you agree that the hi-point now is better than the Glock later?"

+1 on that!!!

Lefty.

 

[MikeSettles]

How many firefights are ya'all expecting to get into? How many of those are you expecting to survive?

If all you have is what you've got on you, two or three engagements over time will seriously deplete your stocks. If your threat includes bands of rogue federal agents or police (armed with their M4s & Glocks), you MAY want to increase your levels of training and equipage.

We are, after all, discussing worst-case fabric-of-society-destroyed scenarios here. What would have happened during Katrina if the law-abiding citizens in their neighborhoods refused to be disarmed? (From what I have heard from members of the Oregon Guard who were sent there to help: They were not called upon to disarm the populace - that was ALL local police.)

 

[Bob D]

If all you have is what you've got on you, two or three engagements over time will seriously deplete your stocks. If your threat includes bands of rogue federal agents or police (armed with their M4s & Glocks), you MAY want to increase your levels of training and equipage.

We are, after all, discussing worst-case fabric-of-society-destroyed scenarios here. What would have happened during Katrina if the law-abiding citizens in their neighborhoods refused to be disarmed? (From what I have heard from members of the Oregon Guard who were sent there to help: They were not called upon to disarm the populace - that was ALL local police.)

True enough. That's why staying home is a good idea. But honestly, these "engagements" we're getting into, are we seriously using squad-sized elements to tactically eliminate another equally sized group? I think both groups leadership needs to be smacked upside the head. If your five armed guys are confronted with five other armed guys and the possibility of peaceful communication is out of the question for some reason, then it's time to make a hasty retreat using as little ammunition as possible. Especially if either group has women, children, or other noncombatants in it. These "Stand and Fight" scenarios just don't play out well for either side as far as survival goes. Any group that openly attacks another armed group has to be psychotic beyond just desperation.

 

[Douglasskid]

True enough. That's why staying home is a good idea. But honestly, these "engagements" we're getting into, are we seriously using squad-sized elements to tactically eliminate another equally sized group? I think both groups leadership needs to be smacked upside the head. If your five armed guys are confronted with five other armed guys and the possibility of peaceful communication is out of the question for some reason, then it's time to make a hasty retreat using as little ammunition as possible. Especially if either group has women, children, or other noncombatants in it. These "Stand and Fight" scenarios just don't play out well for either side as far as survival goes. Any group that openly attacks another armed group has to be psychotic beyond just desperation.

Try "sub-tek", they are making a AR that uses 45ACP with :stick type" mags. Feeds in the side, dropping spent brass out the bottom, previous mag slot. They are working on a 12 ga. holding 25 rounds for your AR.

 

[greycobra_03]

Look, people get caught up in these discussions about huge round counts and weapons. I believe that the problem here is MINDSET! Any SHTF scenario will devolve quickly into a guerrilla style asymmetrical conflict. Think in terms of hundreds of different small "militia" groups and individuals. Just shooting people is not the way to survive! "Suppressive fire" only identifies your position, wastes ammo and draws fire.

Thinking on multiple levels is important. Knowledge of IEDs and diversionary tactics are a must. (We aren't allowed to stock up on explosives, but the knowledge to make them is a good thing to have). Being able to eliminate a lynch-pin and disappear is crucial. Suppressed precision shooting is a must. Being able to blend in while carrying the tools necessary to complete your guerrilla war is paramount. But most of all, learn the art of diplomacy. Understand the art of the hegelian dialectic, the false flag, the unconfirmed rumor and the devils deal. Learn psychology and study people. Teach yourself how to lie, and understand the fallout of lies. All of this is especially true when dealing with a bunch of panicked citizens who are just trying to protect themselves as they see fit. Understand the art of hiding your possessions quickly and safely.

If you plan on staying in a certain geographical area, establish some caches which are fairly easy to walk to. I hide ammunition, staples and items that are difficult to improvise in support of the above goals. A 6" PVC pipe 4' long with a cap on one side and a female thread, a o-ring and a male threaded cap make a great burial tube that will cost you $4.50ish. I use .308 as my distance round, and a 12 gauge for my shock and awe. I hide 100-200 rounds of .308, 200 rounds of 12 gauge, 100 rounds of .45 and 1000 rounds of .22 in each tube. That takes up about 2 feet of the tube. I pack all the ammo in a mylar bag, and make sure to put a moisture absorber inside!

As to standardization of ammo and firearms, I agree with the principal but also agree that it is a low priority. A much greater priority is having pre-identified safe houses, caches and training!

 

[Bob D]

...and medical supplies, sources of food and clean water... those are important of course. It's tough to shoot your way out of a bacterial infection.

 

[greycobra_03]

Bob D, you hit the nail on the head. In asymmetrical warfare, you have to understand that there is no backup, no resupply, no support. If you get hurt, you just lowered your chances of survival. If you must engage, hit-and-run! Don't stick around and try to hold the fort unless you can eliminate the threat with almost no danger to you. An injury, especially a GSW, is a game-changer.

 

[Bob D]

Bob D, you hit the nail on the head. In asymmetrical warfare, you have to understand that there is no backup, no resupply, no support. If you get hurt, you just lowered your chances of survival. If you must engage, hit-and-run! Don't stick around and try to hold the fort unless you can eliminate the threat with almost no danger to you. An injury, especially a GSW, is a game-changer.

A knife and a pair of quiet shoes are my standardized ammunition. If I feel like I have to kill people to survive, I'd rather do it when they can't fight back.

I don't like the odds in a fair fight. Run away right now, then sneak up and garrote them all in their sleep later.

 

[MikeSettles]

True enough. That's why staying home is a good idea. But honestly, these "engagements" we're getting into, are we seriously using squad-sized elements to tactically eliminate another equally sized group? I think both groups leadership needs to be smacked upside the head. If your five armed guys are confronted with five other armed guys and the possibility of peaceful communication is out of the question for some reason, then it's time to make a hasty retreat using as little ammunition as possible. Especially if either group has women, children, or other noncombatants in it. These "Stand and Fight" scenarios just don't play out well for either side as far as survival goes. Any group that openly attacks another armed group has to be psychotic beyond just desperation.

Squad-size meeting engagements would certainly not be wise if they can be avoided. More likely scenarios include defending what you have against groups of armed scavengers, or being taken under fire while your group is out scavenging. Using stealth to avoid contact in both instances would be my first choice. In the first (defense) scenario, it's always best (IF you must engage), to catch them in a kill zone of YOUR choice. In the second (meeting engagement) scenario, my FIRST choice would be to break contact immediately. Only if you are caught in his near-ambush kill zone do you fight through. Patrolling 101, with the twist that you can't expect air or artillery support, nor any reinforcement.

I would only "stand and fight" in order to defend a base-camp containing children/old/injured folks who couldn't either fight or flee. Or to defend resources immediately necessary to my group's survival. You may have to fend off numerous attacks by scavengers, or fend off one, move, then fend off the next, etc.

Survival may sometimes require defending, and sometimes fleeing. It may also mean being ready to take resources away from someone else. Armed motorcycle gang with fuel, and if you don't some, your group will be their prey? (I know; sounds like movie script - but a real possibility in a "doomsday" scenario.)

Would I be willing to talk to other groups? Absolutely! (How else to we put society back together after an apocalyptic disaster.) Would I shoot back when necessary? Also an adamant yes.

I think that this is a really good conceptual discussion, and some of you folks certainly do a better job of 'splainin' than I do.

 

[MikeSettles]

I don't think that "Asymmetric Warfare" is the correct term here:
""Asymmetric warfare" can describe a conflict in which the resources of two belligerents differ in essence and in the struggle, interact and attempt to exploit each other's characteristic weaknesses. Such struggles often involve strategies and tactics of unconventional warfare, the "weaker" combatants attempting to use strategy to offset deficiencies in quantity or quality.[1] Such strategies may not necessarily be militarized.[2] This is in contrast to symmetric warfare, where two powers have similar military power and resources and rely on tactics that are similar overall, differing only in details and execution.
The term is frequently used to describe what is also called "guerrilla warfare", "insurgency", "terrorism", "counterinsurgency", and "counterterrorism", essentially violent conflict between a formal military and an informal, poorly-equipped, but resilient opponent.

AS refers to a lopsided conflict between to powers. I think that the doomsday situation we have been discussing would rather look more like a gang free-for-all: A whole bunch of groups of various sizes and strengths all going after the same resources - the same "turf". It would begin between smaller, more numerous groups, and evolve into contests between larger and larger groups (as smaller ones were assimilated into the larger ones).

However, if our "doomsday" was a conflict between the American Citizen and a Tyrannical Government, then the term "Asymmetric Warfare" would apply.

 

[greycobra_03]

While you are correct in your assessment of asymmetrical warfare, Mike, I was referring to the tactics employed in asymmetrical conflict. Guerrilla tactics work against a large superior force as well as small groups.

 

[MikeSettles]

While you are correct in your assessment of asymmetrical warfare, Mike, I was referring to the tactics employed in asymmetrical conflict. Guerrilla tactics work against a large superior force as well as small groups.

Best to use correct terms when communicating. The only time we might experience Asymetric Warfare within the boundaries of the US is 1) a Red Dawn scenario (foreign invasion, with guerilla action by militia groups), or 2) the Constitutional Militia fighting against a tyrannical US government. What we have been discussing here seemed primarily to be competing groups scavenging in order to survive a major disaster. I suppose that we could include the Red Dawn and Tyrannical Government scenarios in the discussion: In the first case, expect to survive for a period on your own resources, then eventually be supported by air drops from outside an occupied area. In the second, militia groups would have to steal or take resources from govmt zombies. In the first case, expect most military units to cooperate with milita; in the second, some units might rebel, and others support the government. In either case, many Regular Army commanders will discount or even deride any competence in Militia units. Even George Washington didn't trust the Militia - he thought them too disorganized and undisciplined. I have seen the same attitude by the Regular Army against the National Guard and Army Reserve in Afghanistan: Largely undeserved.

 

[greycobra_03]

Mike, the very idea of fighting random groups of militia/gangs/individuals implies Asymmetry. You may be the larger, more organized force, or you may be the smaller guerrilla group. Your two examples, Red Dawn and Constitutional Militia vs. Federal Government are extreme examples. The fact that a fight is more or less asymmetrical does not change its asymmetry.

Be that as it may, with correct definitions aside, the tactics of the Viet Cong/Taliban have won every engagement in the past 70 years. No army, regardless of it's technological superiority or training, can defend against constant, unending stealth attacks. "Militia" days are over, as conceived by our founding fathers. Now, a militia would be best served by having no direct leadership, just motivated individuals who plan small attacks against the occupying force. This is especially true when the actions of the "militia" are supported by the population. The occupying force usually makes this sort of offensive easy, as they barricade, set up check points, and attack civilians who may or may not be militia. These actions turn the people against the occupying force, and also provide clear military targets for snipers and bombers.

The above is true, both for the scenarios that you provide, and for a town or landowner that is defending his castle. Morality aside, a sniper poking holes in a defensive position then disappearing is a terrible drain on moral and manpower.

We have deviated from the topic the OP wished to discuss.

 

[Riot]

Every NatGuard Armory has a Lock-up with firearms for all of their personnel. (M-16/M-4s, M9s, a couple of 249s or 240Bs, and the occasional .50 machine gun or Mk19 grenade launcher.) What they don't have at almost all of them is ammunition. That's all stored at a much more secure location, with plans in existence to distribute it rapidly and safely should the S hit the F and communication is still working properly. Unless you know where that location is, and can somehow access it through what will be an armed-to-the-teeth group of highly trained and well-equipped military, then you're better off finding ammo at the nearest redneck's house than trying to get anything from an Armory. Even many of the soldiers that do manage to get to their duty station at the NG armory will find their combat gear isn't worth a damn until their chain of command gets orders from higher to distribute the weapons and the ammo once that gets there.

Agreed...military members have a "shoot on site" clause for anyone leaving with anything from their armories. Besides, if the SHTF you honestly think there will be a single rifle in it to begin with?

How many firefights are ya'all expecting to get into?

You're asking the wrong question...it isn't a mater of how many firefights we plan on getting in- it's a mater of us wanting to win the firefights we may get into. I won't argue that avoiding the fight is the better option. But sometimes the fight comes to you, and you must be prepared.

How many of those are you expecting to survive?

All of them...

 

[Steve06]

I retired from the Army after just over 20 years. Everyone knew where the Ammo Point was. In a career you would probably be in one of the ammo bunkers many times to draw or turn in ammo. Although there are signs posted that Lethal Force is Authorized to Trespassers at Ammo Dumps I would seriously doubt that anyone could cite an incident where that has happened.

 

[Riot]

I retired from the Army after just over 20 years. Everyone knew where the Ammo Point was. In a career you would probably be in one of the ammo bunkers many times to draw or turn in ammo. Although there are signs posted that Lethal Force is Authorized to Trespassers at Ammo Dumps I would seriously doubt that anyone could cite an incident where that has happened.

You are absolutely correct...that is mainly because of all the locks are bolt-cutter proof and all the armories have digital combination alarm pads.

If you only knew how close I was to shooting someone for walking out of an armory with an arm full of rifles you would probably redact that statement.

I was an MP for the 82nd MP Co. Normally for alarms we wait for backup to arrive, but I literally was across the street when I heard the call. I was radioed for a "duress alarm" (meaning someone from inside the armory activated the alarm) and it was a weekend to boot so nobody should even be in there. I asked if backup was enroute and was told "affirmative" so I parked the car, got out and waited by the outside of the armory door. I hadn't been there for 15 seconds before someone kicked the door open with about five rifles in his arms. I drew my firearm (didn't point it at him) and told him to "Stop!" He stopped, looked at me, then kept coming towards me. I'm screaming at him by this point and the firearm comes off SAFE to FIRE when an LT comes out.

Aparently they were doing a pre-deployment inventory and some PFC decided to "see what this button does".

 

[MikeSettles]

I retired from the Army after just over 20 years. Everyone knew where the Ammo Point was. In a career you would probably be in one of the ammo bunkers many times to draw or turn in ammo. Although there are signs posted that Lethal Force is Authorized to Trespassers at Ammo Dumps I would seriously doubt that anyone could cite an incident where that has happened.

Steve, the "Ammo Point" you refer to exists only on active military installations. I expect that PANG and K-Falls have them, but the National Guard and Army Reserve don't keep any ammo stocks immediately available. Usually, a unit going to a qualification range on drill weekend will pick up their training ammo a few days ahead of time, and turn in the residue within two days after the training event. They draw and turn-in at Ft Lewis. The Cal Guard used to keep a few cases of 5.56mm in each armory for riot control purposes, and that's all.
Expect that, as part of the prep for a major civil-disturbance or invasion, units would report to the big bases to draw Unit Basic Loads, otherwise, Guard and Reserve units won't not have anything on hand. I doubt that the State of Oregon maintains anything more than a little guard ammo in Salem.

 

[erudne]

Umitila
I suggest PPL here read up on the most recent LA Riots (Rodney King)
there was NO LEO pressance, NO NG pressance for 4 days, LA Police hunkered down at city hall and watched TV. The situation was pre-planned and a billion Pre-Obama dollars went up in smoke, members of Non-Entitled-Races were raped, murdered and burnt alive by cheap thugs with a empty beer bottle and .50 worth of gasoline.
This time there will be an army armed with explicit instructions pre-loaded in lap tops. GPS/Cenus data cross referanced with Google Earth.
expect Soviet infantry weapons, IEDs MFG in Venezuala weilded by Cartel and Jihadies
watch for the Red, Green, Black and Brown T-shirts and scarves

 

[mjbskwim]

I have to agree with the diplomacy thoughts. Most of the time another 5 people will help your cause.More supplies and force.

And if you have enough,you will most definitely have a scout.This has been going on for thousands of years.There is always someone who is able to sneak around ,unheard.
Then you can avoid confrontations with other big groups and survive longer.


But this isn't what the thread was about.The thread was about standardizing guns.

For whatever reasons or scenarios.
Many more threads on surviving warfare and the apocalypse to come
But thanks for your combat fore site.

 

[mjbskwim]

Umitila
I suggest PPL here read up on the most recent LA Riots (Rodney King)
there was NO LEO pressance, NO NG pressance for 4 days, LA Police hunkered down at city hall and watched TV. The situation was pre-planned and a billion Pre-Obama dollars went up in smoke, members of Non-Entitled-Races were raped, murdered and burnt alive by cheap thugs with a empty beer bottle and .50 worth of gasoline.
This time there will be an army armed with explicit instructions pre-loaded in lap tops. GPS/Cenus data cross referanced with Google Earth.
expect Soviet infantry weapons, IEDs MFG in Venezuala weilded by Cartel and Jihadies
watch for the Red, Green, Black and Brown T-shirts and scarves

There won't be any foreign soldiers on the ground in the USA.
They know they won't survive a day.Even the most elite forces understand we won't put up with some non- US soldier telling them what to do or trying to take ANYTHING from them.Foreign governments understand,we would be the biggest nightmare invasion there ever was.
Right here in Sequim,there would be WW2 vets ,along with current soldiers,fighting insurgents troops.
There is not enough people in our Army,willing to come get our guns
Our main problem will be the wanna bee zombies and thugs forgetting history.