Sight Picture: Target Shooting vs. Self Defense

[KaniksuKidd]

I shoot a red dot in competition, from time to time. I assure you, it is easy to loose the dot. I also have astigmatism. And I need glasses to read. I find the dot a real help - but it is not a automatic thing. I still think "front sight, front sight" while waiting for the buzzer.

I am very interested in the Shield with a Red Dot; The narrow single stack - with a dot - seems interesting. How long does it take to come on? would I leave it on all the time ?

I believe that the S&W Shield you are referring to has a laser mounted in front of the trigger guard. This is not a true red dot because the laser projects a red dot onto the target, not onto a reflective surface within the device.

 

[RicInOR]

I believe that the S&W Shield you are referring to has a laser mounted in front of the trigger guard. This is not a true red dot because the laser projects a red dot onto the target, not onto a reflective surface within the device.

Performance Center® M&P®9 SHIELD™ M2.0™ 4" Barrel Optics Ready | Smith & Wesson

 

[KaniksuKidd]

View attachment 578080

Performance Center® M&P®9 SHIELD™ M2.0™ 4" Barrel Optics Ready | Smith & Wesson

Well I'll be darned! What will they come up with next?

 

[Cerberus Group]

@Cerberus Group, I have seen a ton of video evidence of people being attacked/robbed by more than one individual. Often this second or even third individual comes out of nowhere and is least expected. True that it doesn't always happen, but I believe in having the skills, if not the plan to deal with possibilities. It's not internet theory, It's thinking, planning, and performing drills that while they may not simulate any particular gunfight, at least teach some skills.

I don't recall discussing this type of scenario. Your scenario was 3 people invading your home. The scenario you brought up... engaging one, then having 1 or 2 more coming out of nowhere, is something new to the discussion.

Your use of "Internet Theory" is again off from what was discussed. The theory is, and I'll state it again...1-2 shots on each threat, then come back and follow up with what didn't get the job done the first go 'round. Like the Mozambique drill, not ever heard of either being applied on the street.

Every drill or practice session you do needs to have a purpose. One must understand WHY you take every action; only by knowing WHY are you able to then simplify, streamline, or replace methods.

An example is people that cannot hit a target while on the move, much less in a critical body zone. In my mind, and in IDPA, this is a critical skill. Moving to cover while shooting is constantly emphasized. Will it always be possible, NO. But we train what we can no?

Getting back to the original title of the thread...if your eyes are drilled into your target/threat, while static or moving...your percentage of hits will increase.

If you're concentrating on your sights, it is wasted effort...as once they are on target / threat, they will not move off. The only thing that will move them off is a pre-ignition movement...such as a flinch...also known as pre-impact bracing.

Take your trigger finger and point at something "killbox" size from 3 yards or so. You'll notice 2 things...you'll point at the middle of it without thinking, and you can keep your finger there without thinking about it. Next, while keeping your finger pointed at the same object, turn your head and look something, then look back...you're finger will still be pointing at the object. Now, try this with your pistol and rifle...same thing happens...they aren't coming off the target. Try this at different distances.

The practice should be...with your eyes drilled into your target, bring the sights up into your eye, so the front sight is in between your eye and target. Make sure the firearm is flat so the front sight always lands in the proper position in the rear sight without having to think or adjust it. You get this down, it will replicate using a red dot optic...the front sight is the red dot. Paint it some eye bleeding color, so as you look through it to your threat, you'll know its always on target.

The brain always forces the eye to the threat...it is unnatural for you to look at something that is nonthreatening during a threatening moment. Why on earth would we want to concentrate at something 18-20" from us (front sight), instead of keeping an observation on something that will do us harm?
For some odd reason, some can't park this thought into our brain because its been hammered into us for so long....and why? Because that's the way we've always done it...ugh!

If the threat is in anyway difficult to hit, you will need to slow down on the trigger and focus more on sight alignment.

If the threat is close and easy to hit, then this is no time for a bullseye type group, in fact, you need to be pounding shots into the threat as fast as possible and stop the threat NOW!

Most of the time you will be somewhere between the two above examples.

Your decision on how fast vs. how slow to press the trigger, how much front sight vs. combat look through and/or body index is based on two things, your perception of the threat situation AND your perception of your skill with your equipment.

If you practice only one trigger press and sight alignment you are a target shooter and not preparing yourself properly for the street, and doing yourself an injustice.

Recognize the need for different levels of trigger press and sight alignment, practice at those levels and in between. In the fight have the ability to adapt to the situation smoothly.

A great drill for this;

Changing Gears-

Target – One 6" circle and one steel either 8" plate or silhouette

Distance – 6" circle at 3-5 yards. Steel/Silhouette at 15-25 yards

Ammo – 15 Rounds

Position – Standing

Drill – On the signal, engage 6" circle with 3-5 rounds. Then engage steel/silhouette with 2-3 rounds from same position.


Purpose – We are trying to balance speed and accuracy while quickly and smoothly driving the pistol horizontally, while managing recoil to the farther smaller looking target.
Work on dropping the sights/optic out of the line of sight, shifting the head and/or eyes to the farther target, and driving the sights to the line of sight during the target transition.

We are also working on transition from close to far, large to small. Shooting style change; fast to slow - subconscious to conscious. Target acquisition and weapon manipulation skills.

Options – Change target sizes and distances.

BTW, I don't shoot the IPSC target, the IDPA target has the proper killbox locations.

The IDPA target still penalizes for quality hits. The chest circle area needs to extend up into the neck area.

Firearms games need to employ a medical examiner to come up with a proper anatomical target.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

Sight picture for target shooting? I generally focus on the "orange", as I call it.... Hit center mass......:



Sometimes you are off a bit, that's why we practice....

 

[bsa1917hunter]

At SD distances and situations I highly doubt you'll have time to line up any sight system. I've watched hundreds of LEO shootouts. Most of them are basically point and shoot/spray and pray. SD isn't much different.

Spray and pray with precision works best. That's why we practice. Learn to control your nerves. Head to head competitions like bowling pins with pistols is an excellent way to see where you are at in this area. Dueling trees and even LEO qualification courses. I only bring up the quals because I've seen it happen. Guys shooting good in the practice session and then when the real test comes, they flunk out because they can't control their nerves........ SD shooting would be very much the same thing, only multiplied 100 times.... Guys can join clubs where they offer head to head shooting events and watch their true skill level go head and shoulders above what they have now..... Just a suggestion...

 

[Cerberus Group]

But, the multiple attackers I've been asking for strategy on don't exist. Got it.

I gave you the strategy that I and others have used successfully .

 

[Alexx1401]

But but but, they used to miss a lot. I presumed it was from lack of training to shoot under stress, shoot while moving, etc. Active training is a friend!!

Important skill for all self defenders: Set a target at 10'-15', at go signal, draw and shoot two high center mass and one to the head while retreating (moving backwards) at an angle (moving off angle is important)!!! Next time set up three targets and shoot two to the head on each target while moving backwards to cover. Hint: it's not easy!!!

I have taught many over the years. Few were able to hit like they "thought" they would at 7 yards. Would set up a target the size of a man, tell them fire as fast as you can and hit. Almost every one would say, it's too close, empty a gun, then find they missed every shot. The smaller the gun they were trying this with the worse it was. After that I would say, OK, now lets start with the front sight
I would also mention this is a target that is not moving, and is not shooting at you

 

[zenbreath]

I have taught many over the years. Few were able to hit like they "thought" they would at 7 yards. Would set up a target the size of a man, tell them fire as fast as you can and hit. Almost every one would say, it's too close, empty a gun, then find they missed every shot. The smaller the gun they were trying this with the worse it was. After that I would say, OK, now lets start with the front sight
I would also mention this is a target that is not moving, and is not shooting at you

...kinda like the difference between hitting a heavy bag, and an opponent in the ring.

 

[bbbass]

...kinda like the difference between hitting a heavy bag, and an opponent in the ring.

Nothin beats time on the mat.

 

[Geardo]

A) shoot enough under pressure/time and if you work on improving you will eventually find a method that works for you. If you are smart enough to find a good instructor to shortcut that, then good for you. If not, just keep working. I was stubborn and wasted a lot of ammo finding what works, but when it works, you will be faster and more accurate then your friends and won't be thinking about exactly what you are doing. It just works .

B) I run the mozambique a lot. But I also work on hammering out more shots CM. The issue with the double tap, is it leads to trigger stutter when you need to shoot more rounds. I combat this with lots of dry fire strings of 5-10 with my rifle.

C) I think argueing about plans on the micro level in a ambush CQB firefight is a little silly. The macro level plan should be to break contact asap and set up counterambush.

Worrying about which guy gets 2-5 bullets? I just don't see that happening. I am shooting the point man till he drops and going from there.

As a side note, all my doors are armorered, I have an alarm and a dog. No one is suprising me in my own home. On the street, running (if possible) is always a good option!

 

[Geardo]

B2... I don't understand "CM", trigger stutter, and how you dry fire strings of 5-10 with your rifle... a little help please?

CM = center mass

My rifle trigger, with the bolt locked back, feels exactly the same as live fire. You can replicate this is cardstock in your glock or a glock dry fire mag.

 

[bbbass]

CM = center mass

My rifle trigger, with the bolt locked back, feels exactly the same as live fire. You can replicate this is cardstock in your glock or a glock dry fire mag.

Glock has a dry fire mag? Last time I looked at a dry fire system for Glock, it was over $300...

 

[Geardo]

Glock has a dry fire mag? Last time I looked at a dry fire system for Glock, it was over $300...

$100 now. You can also stick a piece of cardstock in the slide/chamber interface to get the same effect.

 

[Geardo]

@bbbass in regards to your other points.


I think we can all agree that SHTF, 99% of people fire as fast as possible at the threat until slide lock.

Luckily this coincides with the fact that pistol bullets suck and require a high # of rounds.

The way I interpret all this, is that you should practice being effective at the way you will most likely shoot. A judicous amoubt of ammo fired as rapidly and accuratly as possible.

 

[Geardo]

Man you fired off so many points I missed most of them .

Trigger stutter is when you freeze up because you are used to double taps.

Pop pop. Pop pop . Pop

As opposed to


Popopopopopop


I was out with a group of guys yesterday, shooting in the woods, and they can shoot so fast, keeping hits in the A or B zone, I am sure someone in earshot thought we had full autos.

 

[bbbass]

$100 now. You can also stick a piece of cardstock in the slide/chamber interface to get the same effect.

Now that I think about it, the dry fire system I'm referring to has a trigger replacement that makes it so you don't have to rack the slide to shoot again.. more realistically replicating actual use in an encounter... at least I hope I don't have to stop and rack the slide with every shot when SHTF... that would suck!

 

[Geardo]

Now that I think about it, the dry fire system I'm referring to has a trigger replacement that makes it so you don't have to rack the slide to shoot again.. more realistically replicating actual use in an encounter... at least I hope I don't have to stop and rack the slide with every shot when SHTF... that would suck!

Yep. That's what that magazine does. As far as I know check Out some YouTube videos of it


Products - DryFireMag

 

[bbbass]

Yep. That's what that magazine does. As far as I know check Out some YouTube videos of it


Products - DryFireMag

Cool! That's a lot more affordable. Thanx for sharing!!!

 

[bbbass]

Man you fired off so many points I missed most of them .

Trigger stutter is when you freeze up because you are used to double taps.

Pop pop. Pop pop . Pop

As opposed to


Popopopopopop


I was out with a group of guys yesterday, shooting in the woods, and they can shoot so fast, keeping hits in the A or B zone, I am sure someone in earshot thought we had full autos.

I have also shot with some guys like that... most were young, most spent lots of $$$ on practice ammo. I wish I could keep my muzzle flip to a minimum for repeat shots, but aging has had a big effect to the detriment of my skill set.