Sight Picture: Target Shooting vs. Self Defense

[awshoot]

... A bit of advice, when a subject is in close, say 3' or less, worrying about sight picture can get you killed. Shoot instinctively, just draw and point shoot. That said, extending the pistol/arm when a subject is within an arm's range can get your firearm taken away. IMO self-defenders need to practice shooting from a compressed chest/arms position and also from retention (retention position can be thought of as shooting from the hip). Also practice your draw/extend/shoot, and practice raising the arms and shooting from low ready. Practice, practice, practice!!!

I practiced this for the first time today -- target one pace away, draw and point shoot one handed without extending my arm too far (still in front of my body though). Three things surprised me:

1. Nipple slide bite the first couple times till I got my hand distance right -- no blood or anything but a couple little strikes right on target. ;-)
   
2. The gun is way louder even with hearing protection when it goes off below and only a little in front of the line of your face (the report surprised me enough the first time that instead of firing a string of two, I fired only once, and I'm not typically surprised -- it was just different enough to make me pause).
   
3. Point shooting at that distance standing or while simultaneously retreating works surprisingly well (against a static piece of cardboard at least) -- most of the time I was in 5 or 6 inch circle at center mass, sometimes worse but no misses. Pretty fun too -- I'm going to do a bunch more of this.

I'd appreciate any videos people who know what they're doing in this regard would suggest for tips.

 

[L84Cabo]

For defensive situations both eyes open if at all possible. Understand, however, that people who don't have a very dominant eye or who may be cross dominant may have trouble doing this.

With that said and in a defensive situation, your focus will probably be moving back and forth between the target and your front sight post depending on what is happening. But if we're talking about a situation where you need to draw and immediately put rounds on target, you may not always need a perfect sight picture. There is such a thing as "good enough" in a defensive situation and particularly as the target is closer in.

When the target is close in you may not need to align the rear sight much at all. And the front sight post may not have to be that precise. You may not even need sights at all and simply shoot instinctively...which you should most certainly spend some time practicing. Try it and see what you're capable of and pay close attention to when you need to use a better sight picture as your target moves out.

Also as someone suggested, one of the big pluses with red dots is that they enable your focus to be on the threat instead of the front sight post. However, most people find it takes just a fraction of a second longer to first find the dot. This does not come naturally to most people. But it is something that can be improved upon greatly with time and practice. And once you have the initial pickup down, I believe a red dot is superior to iron sights in just about every way (not counting the fact that they are mechanical and can fail). That's just my opinion. YMMV.

 

[bbbass]

1. Point shooting at that distance standing or while simultaneously retreating works surprisingly well (against a static piece of cardboard at least) -- most of the time I was in 5 or 6 inch circle at center mass, sometimes worse but no misses. Pretty fun too -- I'm going to do a bunch more of this.

I'd appreciate any videos people who know what they're doing in this regard would suggest for tips.

This is a bit off topic but I hope the OP will indulge.

I can remember being surprised at how good I can shoot from chest or hip the first time I encountered that set up at an IDPA match... We had three targets at arms length, one in front, and one to the left and right (coming close to breaking the 180deg rule for IDPA match safety)... draw and shoot two shots from the hip into each target... I shot the center first because that is natural, then just turned my trunk left and right... didn't even think about it... so easy and so much fun... it's amazing and I love it when we have those stages... the only stage I'm fast on because I don't run fast anymore!!!

BTW, remember "distance is your friend"!! If you can move back, do so. If you have time to run away, better yet!! Runfu works! But stand and fight is not a good survival technique... in general, move and shoot, don't be a stationary target!!!!! But regarding CQB, once they are in close, you don't have too many choices left.

I don't know why you'd need tips if you are doing so well... the only thing I would say is remember not to extend the pistol forward and risk getting it taken away. The other thing is to think about how to fend off an attacker with the other arm/hand/forearm/elbow while shooting from retention (if you practice this don't shoot yourself, might be wise to practice with an empty pistol).

These two are more informative IMO:

There was a vid with a fellow that used his off hand to grab the top of the slide and fight with his elbows but I can't find it now... interesting technique if I find I will share.

This is the compressed ready position (it is also important to be able to shoot from this position):

 

[bbbass]

OP, practice your low ready position... reason is that we generally don't want to point our handguns at people we don't intend to shoot, it is dangerous and you don't want to have an AD/ND. IMO, holding a subject at gunpoint is generally not a good thing... why would you do it... might be better to let a robber get away and have police deal with them later, but some people just have to have their justice! If you do, you may want to watch your subject from a low ready rather than having them in your sights where you might accidentally shoot an unarmed suspect if they startle you... then you would have to explain why you shot them.

 

[dcfranzen]

IMO, holding a subject at gunpoint is generally not a good thing... why would you do it... might be better to let a robber get away and have police deal with them later, but some people just have to have their justice!

An excellent point! All too often we read about a good Samaritan who is in deep do-do and facing huge legal expenses to defend themselves even though their actions were justified. Here is an article from the Thinking Gunfighter blog on the topic...

The Thinking Gunfighter

There are other writings on this topic from 2011 titled, Dangers of Intervention. The blogger is no longer posting but his writings and the comments from readers are thought provoking and worthy of consideration when working up your personal defense strategies.

 

[dcfranzen]

"If any of you non-cops are still reading, what do you think cases like this portend for the armed citizen? You don't get a pass.

Another excellent point! Life is all about choices and consequences - good and bad. As we develop our self defense strategies, we need to consider the possible consequences lurking in the future. A walk through the legal minefield following a shooting can be a costly adventure. Not only do we have to fear the state and federal criminal courts but the tort courts too.

 

[awshoot]

... the only thing I would say is remember not to extend the pistol forward and risk getting it taken away. The other thing is to think about how to fend off an attacker with the other arm/hand/forearm/elbow while shooting from retention (if you practice this don't shoot yourself, might be wise to practice with an empty pistol).

Yeah -- I did a few practice runs with an empty gun. In one I put my left arm out to push the imaginary attacker away, and I immediately decided against practicing that with ammo -- just didn't want to get any part of me out in front of the muzzle. I had a vision of being in the ER minus a finger or a hole through my hand wishing I hadn't tried that, so I didn't try it.

Thank you for all the vids!

 

[awshoot]

...

Right there at 1:22 he demonstrates what I did wrong to get nipple slide bite (which did in fact cause the slide to lock open in my practice).

 

[WillametteWill]

Lots of cool info here. Fyi, don't expect to get a clear sight picture of the target and sights at the same time...the human eye does not work that way. (Why red dots work so well because you can with these.) Absorb the info and see what works for you. I'm cross dominate and almost always have to squint (I shoot handguns right handed, left eye.) Shoot trap with a small fogging spot over my left side of the glasses so I can keep both eyes open, yet I have shot a 97 with my left eye closed.

There are lots of ways that will work. You just have to find the ones for you

 

[pdxparabellum]

I taught myself to shoot with both eyes open using a Brock String. It was not easy. I am left eye dominant and a right handed shooter. This really came in handy when having to shoot long guns. Chris Sajnog (Ret. USN SEAL) sells one on Amazon, or you can make one. Personally I chose to support him.

The string is anchored to something just below of your line of sight. You then hold the string just under your nose. This helps by giving you a medium for focusing in and out along a calibrated plane (much like your slide) in front of your face - on calibrated points on the string, usually adjustable beads that move up and down for each exercise. This actually requires eye muscle repetition, which is the only way to build that memory.

When using both eyes open at first, you can see "two" slide tops / guns basically. That in effect show two front sight posts. Your goal is to align those two by moving your eyes (sometimes inward, almost crossed) independently to focus on them. The picture behind the sight then becomes entirely visible. While it is in no way as sharp as the focus on your front sight, it is visible. It is a stereographics / steroscopy tactic that you basically use to train yourself to see one front sight, and a full sight picture that at first - might not be entirely visible.

 

[bbbass]

Yeah -- I did a few practice runs with an empty gun. In one I put my left arm out to push the imaginary attacker away, and I immediately decided against practicing that with ammo -- just didn't want to get any part of me out in front of the muzzle. I had a vision of being in the ER minus a finger or a hole through my hand wishing I hadn't tried that, so I didn't try it.

Thank you for all the vids!

One could keep the arm high enough to avoid being hit in the hand or forearm from a hip shot, a high chest retention might be riskier, but maybe we should practice this with a paintball? What do you think of that idea... might hurt enough not to do it again???

I'm glad you found some value in the vids!!!

Regards,

bb

 

[pdxparabellum]

Another excellent point! Life is all about choices and consequences - good and bad. As we develop our self defense strategies, we need to consider the possible consequences lurking in the future. A walk through the legal minefield following a shooting can be a costly adventure. Not only do we have to fear the state and federal criminal courts but the tort courts too.

100%.
Living in PDX and being fortunate to talk to Kevin Starret (OFF) twice during classes at Threat Dynamics, I am much more aware of the devastating legal circumstances that I would incur drawing my firearm in the city of Portland. That is why I chose to invest in USCCA insurance which at first I found unnecessary. After listening to Kevin and reading his book, I became much more aware of how difficult the Multomah courts are - and how lenient they will be toward the criminal that (god forbid) assaults you. For the record, Kevin told me more than once he doesn't even enter Multnomah unless he's accompanied by a bunch of lawyers. To him it's nothing to do with firepower, and everything to do with lawyer-power.

The USCCA and others are controversial. While having insurance gives me piece of mind, it in no way gives me the feeling of being able to use my weapon "more assuredly". That is what the Dems and such will have you believe....hence the numerous investigations, litigations, and discontinuations of these policies in certain states. Moving forward, Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network is most likely my next move should USCCA terminate it's services in OR.

 

[awshoot]

.. but maybe we should practice this with a paintball? What do you think of that idea... might hurt enough not to do it again???...

Great idea -- a lesson without real damage.

 

[zenbreath]

One could keep the arm high enough to avoid being hit in the hand or forearm from a hip shot, a high chest retention might be riskier, but maybe we should practice this with a paintball? What do you think of that idea... might hurt enough not to do it again???

I'm glad you found some value in the vids!!!

Regards,

bb

Every CCW should do paintball at least once. I try to go at least twice each year.
The two things you learn in paintball is 1, how fast people move, and how little time you have to line up your shot. And 2, cover is a gift from God!

 

[bbbass]

Every CCW should do paintball at least once. I try to go at least twice each year.
The two things you learn in paintball is 1, how fast people move, and how little time you have to line up your shot. And 2, cover is a gift from God!

Agreed!!!

I'll add that concealment is often as good as cover... for some odd reason most people will not shoot thru a wall or whatever if they cannot see you. Yes, cover is best cuz it stops boolitts, but get behind concealment if there is not closeby cover!!

 

[zenbreath]

OP, 2005 NYPD stats for officer involved shootings (the last one they released to the public) showed that 50% of their gunfights were 5 yards or less, 85% were 7 yards or less. Getting good hits at that range doesn't take a lot of skill on the range. The hard part is all of the other things happening that make the gunfight necessary. The hard part will be deciding if shooting is necessary and if pulling the trigger is necessary Right Now!

Low Ready. CJTC determined, through simmunition training, that an officer holding a suspect at Low Ready would get better hits, faster, than an officer holding the weapon center mass on the suspect.

In my training, I try to put 2 rounds on a sheet of notebook paper in less than a second at 3 yards. (edit, from the low ready position.)

 

[Cerberus Group]

Whatever drill(s) you work on, get out of the 2 shot or double tap scenario.

Pistol bullets performance is variable at best. Add the stress of the confrontation and accuracy can plummet as well.

Think along the lines of a minimum standard response as 3-5 rounds.

 

[surevaliance]

Get a red dot. You can keep target focus while seeing your sights. It is much faster and more accurate. Also statistically your gun fight will be 3 yards and less than 5 shots. In that space and time you need to have a very good idea about where you muzzle is without using the sights. Dryfire practice is a good way to learn this. Also using an old shot up target, place a new target behind it. Fire a string of shots. Call your shot then confirm by looking at the new target behind.

Red dots are amazing!

 

[Cerberus Group]

Iron sights should be used the same way as a Red Dot...your eye focus should be on your target /threat, with the sights coming up into your eyes.

 

[Cerberus Group]

You need to position yourself so you're not replicating the El Presidente drill...as well as keeping your awareness up so you can either avoid the situation altogether, or already have a better position to begin with.

Then add in that 3-5 rounds can be fired in under 1 second...target transitions is a key drill. Not only side by side, but vary both the distances of each target, so each is at its own distance, and separate the targets in varying lateral distance as well.