Sight Picture: Target Shooting vs. Self Defense

[Cerberus Group]

I just added to my above post.

I know what is being tossed around the net as theory...that being, 1-2 shots on each then come back and follow up with what didn't get the job done the first go 'round. But like the Mozambique drill, not ever heard of either being applied on the street.

Applying a 3rd round is fraction of a fraction of a second....

 

[Cerberus Group]

Watch a video of 2 or more thugs trying rob a store etc., as soon as the bullets start, and main guy is engaged... the others scatter.

 

[titsonritz]

Yup. But,

If I'm sitting in my chair watching TV, and 3 bad boyz bust in the door, awareness won't matter and position will be hard to improve. These things happen and sometimes can't be avoided. I go back to my question... How many shots on each?

Position can be matter maneuvering yourself to place one bad guy between yourself and his butt buddies.

 

[RicInOR]

I strongly advocate you play a game,
whether steel challenge, IDPA, or something like quick draw.

The buzzer is your stressor. If you need to, do some jumping jacks to get the heart rate up while you are "on deck"

Draw, finger press, sight alignment - while under pressure (clock) multiple times in a session. Good value for the money.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Position can be matter maneuvering yourself to place one bad guy between yourself and his butt buddies.

This is the key here...positioning. If you're concerned about a home invasion scenario, then always keep a firearm close, and arrange your house to suit such a possibility.

 

[Cerberus Group]

We can't work on internet theory, we can only fight that which is dealt us...not what we trained for. Very few of my confrontations ever replicated what my training at the time consisted of, which is why the training I give is based on reality of how people think, move, and the brain operates...and based on many AAR's of LE, Military and citizen shootings...not someone's theory.

One needs to watch thousands of actual street shooting videos, both LE and citizen alike...watch the body movements, facial expressions if the video is clear enough, then the peripheral people...don't concern yourself with the firearm use of it.

In your post #38, you mention doing a drill that replicates the Mozambique, which is 3 rounds...and one of my last posts talks about shooting 3. A lot of people can't do that drill very well with both shooter and target static let alone moving.

Unless the rounds go in the snot locker, you're looking at 2+ minutes of confrontation unless the person mentally gives up...and a lot of damage can occur in that amount of time.

Soooooo, if the shots aren't going in the snot locker, they have to hit the vitals...which is what I call "High and Tight". High - nipple height. Tight - nipple width. Which on the average person is about 11" high and about 9" wide...or the size of a standard piece of printer/copy paper...8 1/2 x 11. This contains the vitals...heart, lungs and major arteries...and yes the lower neck, which contrary to popular belief, can't move that much. An IPSC target is anatomically incorrect for proper shot placement...and you're penalized for hitting the neck...UGH!

Now, take that same "High and Tight" target on a person, they turn just a bit...and the that 9" wide target becomes 4-5" or less. If one can not consistently hit a 6" circle on demand, day or night without fail...static...you're chances of hitting it while moving...well we can all figure out the Las Vegas odds on that one.

There are some odds that will be stacked against you, with a low possibility of getting out of it unscathed...the scenario you bring up...is such.

Bottom line...what's you're goal? Do you have a training regimen outlined? What is the purpose of each and every drill you do? Work on that which you suck at first...and most!

 

[Cerberus Group]

Lastly...I'm not the all being top tier of instructors. I believe everyone should get training, and get that from a variety of instructors, as one doesn't hold all the answers.

As they say for those who have seen the elephant...I have only seen my view of it...they are many other actual views of the same elephant.

 

[packnruger44]

Look into shooting idpa. Learn to use cover.
Learn to shoot on the move. Learn to keep both eyes open.
It's given me a sense of confidence in my abilities.while they are not shooting back I am still engaging multiple targets and have the stress of others watching and a timer running

 

[Cerberus Group]

Look into shooting idpa. Learn to use cover.
Learn to shoot on the move. Learn to keep both eyes open.
It's given me a sense of confidence in my abilities.while they are not shooting back I am still engaging multiple targets and have the stress of others watching and a timer running

I agree, competition can figure out things real fast when it comes to equipment, its use and placement and of course the use of cover and multiple targets.

 

[Jeedia]

You guys make SO difficult. You just need to shoot faster, more rounds, and more accurately than your opponent/s.

Kidding aside..... No matter how well you train you may still get shot. You have to be good, he just needs to be lucky. Idpa is a great introduction into the shooting sports, but it is kinda cookie cutter stages. There is very little planning or things that can mess up your plan. Uspsa is alot more problem solving on the timer, shooting faster and accurate. If you want to use these sports as practice, then use your carry gear. Stay away from the gear queers. Run your gun with your gear, and evaluate it. You may find your gear sucks, maybe not. Find a proven platform you like and stick with it.

Also you don't need to spend alot of money on ammo either. Find a few drills online put up a few scaled targets and dryfire them at home. Even just drawing and reloading in dryfire will make a huge improvement in your skill level.

Ask questions of people who seem to have it down at any of the shooting sports. Most people would love to help you figure things out, just need to ask. If they can't they know someone who can.

 

[zenbreath]

Multiple targets. Set up 4 or more targets with a balloon on each, center mass. Clean it like a plate rack. Or, set them up in a wedge formation and pop the closest one and
work your way back.

Scenarios like this is where you uses 'A good plan, violently executed beats a perfect plan, executed to late.'

 

[Kruel J]

Red dots are amazing!

Sigh.

Practice point shooting. Skip the sights all together. Because in a real world situation that's probably what's going to happen anyway.

 

[zenbreath]

Whatever drill(s) you work on, get out of the 2 shot or double tap scenario.

Pistol bullets performance is variable at best. Add the stress of the confrontation and accuracy can plummet as well.

Think along the lines of a minimum standard response as 3-5 rounds.

An instructor I worked with a while ago had a neat target to teach this. He had a string tied to the top of the target frame, a balloon on the string at chest level, a cereal box around the balloon, and a target center mass on the box. You engaged the target from what 3 to 15 yards. When you popped the balloon, the target would drop. You engaged the target TILL THE TARGET DROPPED. It didn't matter if it took 1, 3, 12 or 37 rounds, you engaged TILL the target DROPPED.

 

[Jeedia]

Sigh.

Practice point shooting. Skip the sights all together. Because in a real world situation that's probably what's going to happen anyway.

That's what's great about red dots. You can completely stay focused on the target and clearly have your sights in view. You don't have to pick which focal plane to focus on. Like it or not, red dots are the future of pistols.

 

[Kruel J]

That's what's great about red dots. You can completely stay focused on the target and clearly have your sights in view. You don't have to pick which focal plane to focus on. Like it or not, red dots are the future of pistols.

Except for us with an astigmatism.

 

[zenbreath]

That's what's great about red dots. You can completely stay focused on the target and clearly have your sights in view. You don't have to pick which focal plane to focus on. Like it or not, red dots are the future of pistols.

Agree, and disagree. The tech is Wonderful, both in battery life and durability.

At Self Defense distances you should see target on both sides of your slide.

 

[Kruel J]

Agree, and disagree. The tech is Wonderful, both in battery life and durability.

At Self Defense distances you should see target on both sides of your slide.

At SD distances and situations I highly doubt you'll have time to line up any sight system. I've watched hundreds of LEO shootouts. Most of them are basically point and shoot/spray and pray. SD isn't much different.

 

[UnionMillsNW]

Target Shooting and Self Defense shooting are completely different things.

There was a study done shortly after WWI that showed most rifleman shot over the enemy...the training just didn't prepare them to kill another person.

In numerous police studies (especially the Los Angeles Officer James Pence Jr. , The Miami Shootout, and Officer Kyle Dinkheller) the emphasis is placed less on marksmanship and more on assaulting through the target.

When I was in the Marines we had the Known Distance (KD) range of 200, 300, and 500 yards. Eventually they implemented a combat element to the qualification where we shot at moving targets while wearing armor.

Both skills are important. But marksmanship is just the foundation to self defense.

Andy made a great point

This is not to say that I did not aim...just that I practiced enough to having my aiming become "second nature" ...

In my experience I don't particularly remember "aiming" (as in the controlled breathing, slow and steady trigger squeeze, reset, ect) but more of a natural "point and shoot" situation.

However the rifleman basics were there, even subconsciously, through hundreds of hours of practice.

Long story short: Know the basics. And if, heaven forbid, you ever get into a defensive situation the best way to stay alive is "intensity and violence of action"

Safe shooting!

 

[9Milcaliber]

If this is in the wrong forum please feel free to move.

I think we have all heard that part of proper sight alignment is focusing on the front sight. For pistol target shooting, I close one eye, align my sights with a focus on the front sight, and aim at the target which tends to "narrow and shrink" what I can see. However, it seems to me that in a self-defense situation, I would want to keep my eyes on the person for better situational awareness. However, this means changing how I align my sight picture and focus. What are your thoughts on this? What would you do? How would you practice for this situation for accuracy? Any ideas, thoughts, and tips are appreciated.

For defensive pistol shooting I learned to leave both eyes open that way you have peripheral vision right and left. And now at the range be it practicing defensive with my carry pistol or for target accuracy I have both eyes open.

 

[RicInOR]

Like it or not, red dots are the future of pistols.

Except for us with an astigmatism.

I shoot a red dot in competition, from time to time. I assure you, it is easy to loose the dot. I also have astigmatism. And I need glasses to read. I find the dot a real help - but it is not a automatic thing. I still think "front sight, front sight" while waiting for the buzzer.

I am very interested in the Shield with a Red Dot; The narrow single stack - with a dot - seems interesting. How long does it take to come on? would I leave it on all the time ?