Why Self Defense Cases Go to Trial

[VinnieBoomBah]

That shows how "fluid" the legal system can be.

And on this note, wasnt there a case we discuused here last year of a guy who took a wrong tur and shot a guy with an AK?.
Iirc, he was convicted based on his previous comments he posted online?
If so, why would a prosecutor be allowed to use those?

 

[Koda]

View attachment 1838810

What?

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

What?

The thread on that topic went down like

 

[Koda]

The thread on that topic went down like

View attachment 1838823

You have a better memory than me... Hopefully this thread will stay on track. The question of if what you say online and your online history is a valid topic of discussion if one should ever end up in a self defense trail.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

You have a better memory than me... Hopefully this thread will stay on track. The question of if what you say online and your online history is a valid topic of discussion if one should ever end up in a self defense trail.

I would substitute "discovery" in place of "discussion" but to that question I would say yes. Rittenhouse came up before, and as I recall his PIP's (prior incident posts, a new phrase I just invented) indicated he wanted to go there to help protect and defend, would your (not you in particular) opinion of what happened if his PIP's had been about how much he wanted to go there to shoot someone and had discussions with other people on how to provoke someone to attack him and how to select who to shoot?

OK, if you are reading this in Rio Linda, I know that he didn't post stuff like that, and I'm not saying that was his intent, PIP's or not, just a thought experiment on a situation we are all familiar with

 

[Provincial]

The Rittenhouse case is an example of what I call the "Vigilante Phobia" effect. When presented with a case where the Government perceives the defendant as acting to dispense justice on their own, they go Berserker in prosecuting the case. This is because they perceives society as so brittle and vulnerable that letting anyone besides the existing justice system risks taking down the whole system. They will spare no effort or expense to make sure that doesn't happen.

Because of this, anyone thinking that they can use self-defense to cover "vigilante" intent is foolish.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Because of this, anyone thinking that they can use self-defense to cover "vigilante" intent is foolish.

And they are also wrong, which was my point. If you put yourself in harms way so that you can live out your vigilante desires nothing that happens after that is self defiance. That was the argument that the gov tried to use against him and they were unable to prove that was his intent primarily as I understand things because they didn't have any PIP's to back up that argument. Had the gov found he (or anyone) had posted statements prior to the shooting indicating he couldn't wait to shoot people, as some recent mass murders have done, those PIP's are fair game for the prosecution to use

 

[Provincial]

Another danger is if, for instance, he texted someone that "...these people often have guns, and I fear that they will use them on me while I am going about my daily routine." The prosecution can present that as premeditation, when it is actually just the expression of legitimate fear.

Consider that those who are prosecuting are just another branch of the forces that are encouraging (and even subsidizing) those trespassing on his property. It is in the interest of the government to protect all parts of the government. That motivation is strong, and seems to be getting stronger.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

Just say you were on a Marajuana induced psychosis and you go free, even if you fatally stabbed someone 108 times. If you fit the narrative they'll find any excuse to release you asap. If you don't fit the narrative they'll hang your bubblegum.

California Woman Who Stabbed Boyfriend 108 Times Sentenced to Probation and Community Service

Bryn Spejcher, 32, avoided prison time after being convicted of involuntary manslaughter in the 2018 stabbing death of her boyfriend Chad O'Melia, 26.

people.com

 

[m8112]

I'm not sure that's true. I recall from my youth a streetmate that got extra time because of his past digressions.

That was in Oakland in the early '90's, so maybe things have changed?

Thats after he was convicted. Can not use that info to convict him

 

[Nosferatu]

Thats after he was convicted. Can not use that info to convict him

Yeah, as @Camelfilter said, it's used for sentencing, not conviction, which makes sense.

 

[WillametteWill]

I think this case is pretty very atypical for self-defense to be claimed. A warning shot, with a rifle, that hits someone, but is not found until the morning, with others allegedly present, while unknown who they are, on the border, with cartels possibly involved. Many to most prosecutors are going to look at the "warning shot" as negating self-defense. i.e., if you needed to defend your life from a deadly force threat, why are you firing warning shots? (Unless you are potus of course.)

As for the prior acts coming into evidence, this is a somewhat complicated issue but involved in several cases (non-self-defense) that I have been involved in the past (as a consultant, NOT a defendant). The prior acts should not be allowed if they are just an attempt to show someone is a bad guy. They can be allowed if they show a relevant connection to the current crime. When used properly and fairly they are very reasonable. In most of the cases I have seen firsthand, this has been the case. We hear about the bad cases.

The Phil Spector (record producer) case (not a case I was involved in) is a good example where they brought in a witness that showed he did some really bad things to her, that were specific and dangerously similar in method as to what happened in the current case. This hung him. In other cases like noted by @VinnieBoomBah , if the defense tries to portray their client as wearing a halo, rebuttal evidence to this may be allowed to counter. If and after someone is convicted, I think in most locations the flood gates open and bad prior history is fair game for sentencing.

This is why social media is usually allowed; it shows a 'current' or at least recent state of mind. As do our bumper stickers, "I don't call 911" signs, and other actions/comments deemed negative by prosecutors. We should also remember that most legitimate self defense cases end up in the right place, no charges filed, when our intent is pure and training is adequate.

 

[Capn Jack]

I figured they went to trial because the body wasn't properly disposed of. Otherwise, it's just a missing person.

Not eveyone owns a backhoe.

 

[solv3nt]

View attachment 1838584

View: https://youtu.be/Rt83RdFiW2k?feature=shared

 

[CLT65]

I was on a jury recently, in a self defense case slightly relevant to this thread. No shots were fired, but the guy claiming self defense was arrested and charged. It may have been self defense, but he did NOT do everything right.

It came down to the one guy's word against the other. The guy who was charged made some bad mistakes, but he did have a CHL at the time, whereas the guy accusing him of threatening him with a gun had a couple of assault convictions in his past. The defendant walked, largely because of this, but "not guilty" doesn't necessarily mean innocent.

I've thought about starting a thread about it, to see what you all think. It's a pretty clear case of "Don't be like this guy", but he still walked. Jury deliberations were fascinating. It may have ended differently for him if he'd have had a Portland jury instead of Yamhill County.

 

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[NWcollector]

In "death wish 3" Charles Bronson buys a car as "bait" then when two men are trying to steal it he verbally confronts them, waits for them to pull knives and threaten him, then shoots both dead.

This would be an interesting self-defense case if it happened just like that.