Sight Picture: Target Shooting vs. Self Defense

[Geardo]

I wish I could keep my muzzle flip to a minimum for repeat shot, but aging has had a big effect to the detriment of my skill set.

A g19 with comp would help a lot.

And not to be rude, to either of you, but @Cerberus Group is what I would start to consider "old" based on me being pretty young, (not sure how how old he actually is!) And he still smokes me on split times.

 

[bbbass]

A g19 with comp would help a lot.

And not to be rude, to either of you, but @Cerberus Group is what I would start to consider "old" based on me being pretty young, (not sure how how old he actually is!) And he still smokes me on split times.

But comps are not allowed in IDPA, so there's that.

Yes, there's old, then there's old and crippled up. I'm 67 in August, with 40yrs of hard labor and a genetic inheritance of osteoarthritis from my mom and bursitis and tendonitis from my dad. Even so, I came in 12 out of 30 shooters at the last IDPA match. Even crippled up, it's still a balance of speed AND accuracy.

Old guys, we're cranky, and if you mess with us, we're too crippled to fool around, so we'll just shoot you!!!

 

[Cerberus Group]

First off, I want to apologize to @Jasonanddeonna for making posts that are off topic from what you're looking for. My answer to your thread question is in Post 71 of this thread. If you have further questions, post here, PM or contact me direct through my website and we can discuss in more detail if you like.

My last post on this multiple threat thingy...

Strategies; I can't teach this on the keyboard...

Awareness - Know your geography, and how many and where humans are in the vicinity. That also applies to friends and family around you. If it's a known bad area, detour yourself.

Slow yourself down when changing environments, meaning; going from outside to inside, changing a position etc...this is when you will be most vulnerable.

Being able to assess a threat before the threat can assess you is key!

We can't stay in color Yellow and Orange (referring to Coopers awareness/force color continuum) for long periods, we wear out mentally...some aster than others.

Mindset - I hear this often, but have heard very few people defining it. What is mindset to you? Please don't use the dictionary, this has to be a personal thought process, not cookie cutter.
And what is this mindset that IDPA teaches of which you speak?

Thugs have the advantage over most people...their mindset. They have very little or no conscience, and carry out raw evil that a lot of people can't park in their brains why or how they could do such things...this right there will put most citizens in the "catch-up" mode from the outset.

A lot of people in AAR's talk about being caught off guard, yet they were trained in having a mindset. The situation was unreal, like it was being in a bad dream etc., you get the picture...we've all heard of these things. These are the things that will make people hesitate...we need to work that which will be the root cause of that.

Position - What is your position in relationship to ingress/egress, windows, people, obstacles...they all matter. Cut down the avenues of fire alleys by using angles, obstacles etc., and threats themselves as @titsonritz pointed out, to minimize those.

Drills - Implement those that replicate some or all of what you're want to accomplish. Here we are talking about multiple threats.

The El Presidente is a great drill, but keep it in perspective...we shouldn't be going toe to toe with three people without moving.

Mozambique, have never heard of it being used in a confrontation in either LE or citizen. Some people practice it, yet complain about head shots and that we shouldn't be doing them because they are so hard to hit. Can't have it both ways.

Zipper, was taught this back in the 80's, yet again...we are again describing the Loch Ness Monster...no one has ever seen it. Why waste valuable rounds purposely gut shooting someone, when the vitals are showing themselves as just as easy a target?

We did a lot of back then, what we see now as odd practices, the tactical world is ever evolving. A lot of drills etc we were taught back then were based on theory...the drills and overall firearm handling. But we have enough info around now, we should be able to wade through the BS, cut out the fluff crap and get to the meat...unfortunately, there's a lot of fluff still being taught. Do instructors not immerse themselves in research???? It's not like it's hard to find.

Integrate a few 3D targets into your drills. You'll see how fast a shallow angle can make the vital target a lot smaller. Take the paper silhouette targets and fold than into odd shapes and place on the target backer/stand, to replicate only being able to see part of a threat. Since we're talking about multiple targets, vary the distances of all the targets.

Get tactical (I cringe at that word) training. Competition is great, but you must learn to know why you do what you do to truly understand it. At competitions, don't walk through the stage first, which I think is asinine...shoot it cold...like life. And no matter the competition...always use your carry gear and run it tactically. Disregard some of the rules about when to reload, dropping magazines etc., stop that part of the game crap. Ok, so you won't get a prize, or a high score or place high...whoppiedingdong...you're prize in the end is your competence with your chosen firearm platform, gear and your ability to function without guided restrictions...other than the rule of law....and most of all, the confident ability to defend yourself as well as family and friends.

Massad Ayoob - Does anyone really know his background? Has anyone checked and verified? I'll leave this here...there is a reason why he lost his favor with both LE and Military, and pretty much focuses on citizen matters.
There are much better overall instructors out there, some even on this forum...search them out...there's a wealth of information here, some that I endorse...not that my endorsement means anything. But if it does...PM me.

I will give him this...few can run with him in the area of citizen personal defense matters.

Don't over think all of this...there's not a Magical-Ninja-Tactical-Advanced-Professional class you can take to attain it...it happens over time, just like anything else in your life.

@Taco_lean....I'll be 56 next month!

Be well all.....

 

[Cerberus Group]

Once more...engage the point man, and the others scatter....

Watch homeowner defend against 4 armed invaders

No, it won't happen all the time...be prepared to engage all threats.

Be well all....

 

[titsonritz]

Right there at 1:22 he demonstrates what I did wrong to get nipple slide bite (which did in fact cause the slide to lock open in my practice).

That's not "nipple slide bite", nipple slide bite is doing this retention exercise left-handed with the slide rotated inward a bit, placing the ejection port in the true nipple slide bite position. Not a pretty picture.

****************

I taught myself to shoot with both eyes open using a Brock String. It was not easy. I am left eye dominant and a right handed shooter. This really came in handy when having to shoot long guns. Chris Sajnog (Ret. USN SEAL) sells one on Amazon, or you can make one. Personally I chose to support him.

The string is anchored to something just below of your line of sight. You then hold the string just under your nose. This helps by giving you a medium for focusing in and out along a calibrated plane (much like your slide) in front of your face - on calibrated points on the string, usually adjustable beads that move up and down for each exercise. This actually requires eye muscle repetition, which is the only way to build that memory.

When using both eyes open at first, you can see "two" slide tops / guns basically. That in effect show two front sight posts. Your goal is to align those two by moving your eyes (sometimes inward, almost crossed) independently to focus on them. The picture behind the sight then becomes entirely visible. While it is in no way as sharp as the focus on your front sight, it is visible. It is a stereographics / steroscopy tactic that you basically use to train yourself to see one front sight, and a full sight picture that at first - might not be entirely visible.

I need to remember to look into this further.

*************

Look into shooting idpa. Learn to use cover.
Learn to shoot on the move. Learn to keep both eyes open.
It's given me a sense of confidence in my abilities.while they are not shooting back I am still engaging multiple targets and have the stress of others watching and a timer running

I agree, competition can figure out things real fast when it comes to equipment, its use and placement and of course the use of cover and multiple targets.

My biggest issue with competition is it can often ingrain some pretty horrible habits in the name of "safety".

************

An instructor I worked with a while ago had a neat target to teach this. He had a string tied to the top of the target frame, a balloon on the string at chest level, a cereal box around the balloon, and a target center mass on the box. You engaged the target from what 3 to 15 yards. When you popped the balloon, the target would drop. You engaged the target TILL THE TARGET DROPPED. It didn't matter if it took 1, 3, 12 or 37 rounds, you engaged TILL the target DROPPED.

That's a goodie right there

 

[titsonritz]

Yes, when watching the target the sights will be doubled... However, your dominant eye "should" take over, move the pistol to the dominant side, and align the sights properly (whereby your mind learns to ignore the other picture). Try throwing the pistol up quickly and see if that works better. But, have you checked to see if you are cross-dominant?... that can really mess with you until you adapt.

If it turns out that you are cross-dominant, there are other Youtube vids that can help. If not, just practice throwing up the sights with both eyes open. Do it over and over, don't leave the pistol up, just keep putting up the sights very quickly until your brain becomes adjusted to the new habit.

Best wishes - bb

Really, WTF?? In took 50 years of shooting to figure out which eye is dominate? Holy moly. Now I don't feel so bad about taking 30 or so years to become a semi-proficient shot with my non-dominate eye.

 

[titsonritz]

Otherwise: your drills = good, my drills = bad. Got it.

You don't recall. But won't go back and look. Okay. Let me 'splain... My scenario as you put it has really just been about engaging more than one attacker. This was generated by your comments about the need to, and I'm interpreting here, soften focus on practicing double taps and Mozambiques. While I would agree that Mozambiques may not be practical and I never thought they were, IMO they do increase marksmanship skills. But, the multiple attackers I've been asking for strategy on don't exist. Got it.

A little cranky in the morning, are yah? You seem to be missing some really good nuggets @Cerberus Group is put down.

 

[Alexx1401]

Once more...engage the point man, and the others scatter....

Watch homeowner defend against 4 armed invaders

No, it won't happen all the time...be prepared to engage all threats.

Be well all....

This kind of thing tends to make me "worry" a little more than I used to. Don't know if it's just that the 24/7 news makes it seem they are more common? Does seem to happen a lot more than it ever used to. I always tend to suspect drug zombies. Now this one video I agree with another poster, it sure looked to me like those guys were after either the guy they got surprised by or maybe they were at the wrong house? They were sure as hell not there to steal, they sure looked like they were there to hit someone.
In any case it's why my favorite "house guns" are short, light rifles with mags that hold a lot of rounds. Just in case.

 

[titsonritz]

Mozambique, have never heard of it being used in a confrontation in either LE or citizen.

They just call it failure drill.

Zipper, was taught this back in the 80's, yet again...we are again describing the Loch Ness Monster...no one has ever seen it. Why waste valuable rounds purposely gut shooting someone, when the vitals are showing themselves as just as easy a target?

How about an updated version for 2019, solar plexus to forehead...

 

[Geardo]

How about an updated version for 2019, solar plexus to forehead...

That is actually the way I heard it described. Or at least the way the youtuber "tactical rifleman" or whatever his name is showed it.

 

[Geardo]

o they appear while I'm writing a reply to someone? IDK. WTF

Yes

 

[powermad]

As far as both eyes open..
That took a bit for me to click.
For the longest time I was using my non dominate eye (left).
Then found out I was supposed to use my dominate eye and that took some time to adjust to.
As I was trying to get it all in line and focused my arms would tire and shoulder would start screaming at me so I would drop, wait and start over.

That wasn't working well so I cheated and plopped down in a chair with a pistol rest and was able to get it sorted out.
After a bit it just clicked, went from multiple targets, slides and sights swimming around to just two.
Now I have a target at the top left and one on the right that has a clear front post over the target.

 

[titsonritz]

Huh?

That's what the dude said in the video.

Huh?



Yup, I been cranky with him. We seem to have a thing that goes back to a few other threads. As far as missing nuggets... it's weird, stuff is not showing up on my screen. I'm missing some posts, then go back later and there they are. From other members too. Posts appear that I've never seen before. Do they appear while I'm writing a reply to someone? IDK. WTF

That's exactly what happens.

 

[titsonritz]

That is actually the way I heard it described. Or at least the way the youtuber "tactical rifleman" or whatever his name is showed it.

The "old school" way was starting at the groin/belly area and working up.

 

[powermad]

Posts appear that I've never seen before. Do they appear while I'm writing a reply to someone? IDK. WTF

Do you have your alerts enabled?
Every thread that I am replying to has a message that pops up in top right alert box and in the lower left of the screen a message pops up saying; a new message has been posted, would you like to read it?
I edit something that I am writing if that pops up and it pertains to what I'm posting about all the time.

In 6,771 posts you haven't noticed that?

 

[titsonritz]

Do you have your alerts enabled?
Every thread that I am replying to has a message that pops up in top right alert box and in the lower left of the screen a message pops up saying; a new message has been posted, would you like to read it?
I edit something that I am writing if that pops up and it pertains to what I'm posting about all the time.

In 6,771 posts you haven't noticed that?

Give him a break, they didn't have forums when he cross the prairies in the covered wagon.

 

[Geardo]

Give him a break, they didn't have forums when he cross the prairies in the covered wago

To be fair, the same thing applies to 90% of this forums user base!

 

[powermad]

Just a cheap Dell laptop.
You don't have to do anything to see if a message has been posted in a thread you are reading or replying to. It automatically does it. Lower left corner
Manbun not required but being somewhat observant helps I suppose.
It's a pretty handy feature if you use it.
Clicking a message and selecting yes or no isn't exactly multi-tasking.



.

 

[Jasonanddeonna]

At SD distances and situations I highly doubt you'll have time to line up any sight system. I've watched hundreds of LEO shootouts. Most of them are basically point and shoot/spray and pray. SD isn't much different.

Given the situation, this is what I would think, but would hope to have enough practice and skill to make sure they are on target versus being scattered.

 

[Jasonanddeonna]

I don't recall discussing this type of scenario. Your scenario was 3 people invading your home. The scenario you brought up... engaging one, then having 1 or 2 more coming out of nowhere, is something new to the discussion.

Your use of "Internet Theory" is again off from what was discussed. The theory is, and I'll state it again...1-2 shots on each threat, then come back and follow up with what didn't get the job done the first go 'round. Like the Mozambique drill, not ever heard of either being applied on the street.

Every drill or practice session you do needs to have a purpose. One must understand WHY you take every action; only by knowing WHY are you able to then simplify, streamline, or replace methods.




Getting back to the original title of the thread...if your eyes are drilled into your target/threat, while static or moving...your percentage of hits will increase.

If you're concentrating on your sights, it is wasted effort...as once they are on target / threat, they will not move off. The only thing that will move them off is a pre-ignition movement...such as a flinch...also known as pre-impact bracing.

Take your trigger finger and point at something "killbox" size from 3 yards or so. You'll notice 2 things...you'll point at the middle of it without thinking, and you can keep your finger there without thinking about it. Next, while keeping your finger pointed at the same object, turn your head and look something, then look back...you're finger will still be pointing at the object. Now, try this with your pistol and rifle...same thing happens...they aren't coming off the target. Try this at different distances.

The practice should be...with your eyes drilled into your target, bring the sights up into your eye, so the front sight is in between your eye and target. Make sure the firearm is flat so the front sight always lands in the proper position in the rear sight without having to think or adjust it. You get this down, it will replicate using a red dot optic...the front sight is the red dot. Paint it some eye bleeding color, so as you look through it to your threat, you'll know its always on target.

The brain always forces the eye to the threat...it is unnatural for you to look at something that is nonthreatening during a threatening moment. Why on earth would we want to concentrate at something 18-20" from us (front sight), instead of keeping an observation on something that will do us harm?
For some odd reason, some can't park this thought into our brain because its been hammered into us for so long....and why? Because that's the way we've always done it...ugh!

If the threat is in anyway difficult to hit, you will need to slow down on the trigger and focus more on sight alignment.

If the threat is close and easy to hit, then this is no time for a bullseye type group, in fact, you need to be pounding shots into the threat as fast as possible and stop the threat NOW!

Most of the time you will be somewhere between the two above examples.

Your decision on how fast vs. how slow to press the trigger, how much front sight vs. combat look through and/or body index is based on two things, your perception of the threat situation AND your perception of your skill with your equipment.

If you practice only one trigger press and sight alignment you are a target shooter and not preparing yourself properly for the street, and doing yourself an injustice.

Recognize the need for different levels of trigger press and sight alignment, practice at those levels and in between. In the fight have the ability to adapt to the situation smoothly.

A great drill for this;

Changing Gears-

Target – One 6" circle and one steel either 8" plate or silhouette

Distance – 6" circle at 3-5 yards. Steel/Silhouette at 15-25 yards

Ammo – 15 Rounds

Position – Standing

Drill – On the signal, engage 6" circle with 3-5 rounds. Then engage steel/silhouette with 2-3 rounds from same position.


Purpose – We are trying to balance speed and accuracy while quickly and smoothly driving the pistol horizontally, while managing recoil to the farther smaller looking target.
Work on dropping the sights/optic out of the line of sight, shifting the head and/or eyes to the farther target, and driving the sights to the line of sight during the target transition.

We are also working on transition from close to far, large to small. Shooting style change; fast to slow - subconscious to conscious. Target acquisition and weapon manipulation skills.

Options – Change target sizes and distances.





The IDPA target still penalizes for quality hits. The chest circle area needs to extend up into the neck area.

Firearms games need to employ a medical examiner to come up with a proper anatomical target.

Thank you for the information and suggestions.