Poll: SHTF Comms? What are you using?

Howard1955 · Dec 22, 2022

aksu747 said:
None, if SHTF involves an EMP then all comms will be unusable.

It might be useful to have a few walkies stored in a box/faraday cage.

Foreverlost · Dec 22, 2022

The big three are first: Food, shelter, & clothing! You ain't talking to or for long without the big three. Comm gear: If it fits into a metal garbage can, keep a second there. After that, any nuke just about puts us back to the stone age. Consumer comms gear isn't up to the job. Most cars will be kaput, you aren't bugging out, maybe walking out? Walking out means walking the gauntlet. Passing thru someone's territory. Working comms will be mostly peer to peer. Any comms relying on a repeater, internet, satellite, etc is iffy. These are a major single point of failure.

Three people can keep a secret if two are dead. Better hope hungry people aren't close. Spend more time receiving rather than transmitting. There are some interesting digital modes used on amateur radio. Some modes can be used via winlink with peer to peer. These require practice by all in a comms group plus prior planning on frequencies. Plus, some of these digital modes require less power than SSB or FM. As an example: JS8CALL Using a plain jane 40 meter dipole, 15 watts of RF, Cape Town South Africa was a piece of cake.

Picking the correct equipment (low power), solar generator, either a foldable or rollable solar panel and you are set to leave the rig on 24/7 in the receive mode. The digital amateur modes will receive and store messages on a small computer tablet which is also charged with solar generator. Can't do that with SSB or FM.

Disaster.........Emergency..........SHTF: Think of these as the black hole or the doughnut hole. Just about everything is down. Comms will be peer to peer mostly amateur radio. Farther away from the hole, more infrastructure is functional. How far will your comms have to reach? Who do you want to find you?

Whatever the plan, give it a dry run/practice. What works what doesn't?

Foreverlost,

kopcicle · Dec 22, 2022

kinda figured there were a few hamsters sandbaggin here

Cerberus Group · Dec 22, 2022

I chose "Other", as my radio setup is far from basic.

All bands of ham radio plus some, along with everything being powered by batteries and solar charged...so am serious about comms.

The Heretic · Dec 23, 2022

aksu747 said:
None, if SHTF involves an EMP then all comms will be unusable.

Incorrect

I don't know how many times I have addressed this assertion (that EMP will destroy all electronics), but it has been enough times that I shouldn't have to do it again. *sigh*

But here goes:

1) EMP is line of sight. If your electronics are behind a hill/mountain, in a valley/gulley/ravine, such that the EMP point source is not directly in a line of sight, then your electronics are less vulnerable to the EMP.

2) A lot of electronics are internally shielded to reduce/prevent RFI. If an electronic item is inside something, like a metal building or a car, or a case, that metal may provide enough shielding to reduce the impact of the EMP - possibly enough to where the item can work in some fashion. If you store the item in a container that would serve as a "Faraday cage" it will be less vulnerable to EMP - it isn't hard or expensive to make such a container.

3) Some electronics are more robust than others when it comes to something like EMP. Some electronics might be temporarily disabled by EMP, such that if you turn them off and turn them back on, they will reset and start working again. Some will show no impact at all. Some may not work correctly but still work somewhat.

4) Some electronics might be less susceptible to EMP damage if they are not turned on at the moment of the EMP. Something that uses an antenna, like a transceiver, will be less vulnerable to EMP if it is turned off and the antenna removed.

In short - it depends on the circumstances. It is not correct to assume that all electronics will be kaput if there is an EMP/CME.

RobMa · Dec 23, 2022

Cerberus Group · Dec 23, 2022

The Heretic said:
Incorrect

I don't know how many times I have addressed this assertion (that EMP will destroy all electronics), but it has been enough times that I shouldn't have to do it again. *sigh*

But here goes:

1) EMP is line of sight. If your electronics are behind a hill/mountain, in a valley/gulley/ravine, such that the EMP point source is not directly in a line of sight, then your electronics are less vulnerable to the EMP.

2) A lot of electronics are internally shielded to reduce/prevent RFI. If an electronic item is inside something, like a metal building or a car, or a case, that metal may provide enough shielding to reduce the impact of the EMP - possibly enough to where the item can work in some fashion. If you store the item in a container that would serve as a "Faraday cage" it will be less vulnerable to EMP - it isn't hard or expensive to make such a container.

3) Some electronics are more robust than others when it comes to something like EMP. Some electronics might be temporarily disabled by EMP, such that if you turn them off and turn them back on, they will reset and start working again. Some will show no impact at all. Some may not work correctly but still work somewhat.

4) Some electronics might be less susceptible to EMP damage if they are not turned on at the moment of the EMP. Something that uses an antenna, like a transceiver, will be less vulnerable to EMP if it is turned off and the antenna removed.

In short - it depends on the circumstances. It is not correct to assume that all electronics will be kaput if there is an EMP/CME.

What's your thoughts on this...

EMP & Lightning Protection

The Worlds First Military Compliant Whole Home and Vehicle EMP Protection Device. EMP Defense for Solar Systems, Generators, Houses, Cars, Ham Radio and More

www.empshield.com

oremike · Dec 23, 2022

As it is, I'm not too involved with the "outside world". If I need to talk with my neighbors I just walk over and talk to them.

The Heretic · Dec 23, 2022

Cerberus Group said:
What's your thoughts on this...

EMP & Lightning Protection

The Worlds First Military Compliant Whole Home and Vehicle EMP Protection Device. EMP Defense for Solar Systems, Generators, Houses, Cars, Ham Radio and More

www.empshield.com

Gimmick

At best a device connected to wiring might protect against a pulse on incoming wiring, but won't protect from EMP pulses otherwise. Anything that is not shielded by a Faraday cage (or something to that effect - like my metal skinned shop, which might or might not protect against EMP, but is better than nothing) would still "see" the EMP.

If you want to protect something from EMP, get a metal ammo can - like a .50 cal ammo can (or a 20mm can if you need to protect larger items).

Remove the rubber gasket in the lid. Remove the paint where the gasket was, remove the paint around the lip of the can body where the gasket contacted the body of the can. Buy some wire mesh gasket material and use it to replace the rubber gasket.

If the item has an antenna or a power cord or other external removable conductive cord (like a headphone cord, or a connection to a computer, or USB cable) - remove that from the item so it is not connected. Remove any batteries from the item.

Put the item it a ESD/EMI/RFI anti-static bag (readily available - this is what electronic parts for computers come in - stuff like a memory card for a computer).

Put that bagged item inside whatever you feel would protect it from physical damage from impacts - like a Pelican/Otter type case/box. And put that in the modified ammo can and close it.

Enclosure Shielding Gaskets, RF Shielding, Absorber

3gshielding.com

https://www.testequipmentdepot.com/desco/packaging-and-shipping/static-shield-bags/esd-emi-rfi-bags/index.htm

^ Just some items that came up in a google search ^

The Heretic · Dec 23, 2022

oremike said:
As it is, I'm not too involved with the "outside world". If I need to talk with my neighbors I just walk over and talk to them.

If there is fallout (nuclear or volcano), or other threats/risks (say it is dark and there are strangers wandering around outside), it would be beneficial to have a means of wireless or wired communication that doesn't require you to be outside your shelter.

3MTA3 · Dec 23, 2022

Cerberus Group said:
What's your thoughts on this...

EMP & Lightning Protection

The Worlds First Military Compliant Whole Home and Vehicle EMP Protection Device. EMP Defense for Solar Systems, Generators, Houses, Cars, Ham Radio and More

www.empshield.com

The website is all flash and no facts. I'd want to read what the report they tout has to say about them - if it were positive they would show it to you. I'm in full agreement with @The Heretic that it's a gimmick

The results of testing done by the govt on EMP's

Homepage

Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack

www.empcommission.org

3MTA3 · Dec 23, 2022

The Heretic said:
Most cell phones use some form of Spread Spectrum, which, depending on the type, is either frequency hopping or time domain (TDMA) or frequency hopping via code division (CDMA). There are a lot of transceivers that use FHSS - e.g., Bluetooth and some unlicensed walkie talkies.

Granted, these are not "security features" - they are used to share frequencies.

It's been a while since I evaluated these so I went back to the first link I posted. There is really a lot going on with these phones to provide security when used in "walkie talkie" mode as opposed to cellular.

..."There is a BIG technology difference between the iDen/ISM units and the FRS Units, in that the FRS units are just FM TwoWay Analog Radios, that can be picked up on ANY UHF Scanner and listened to, whereas the iDen/ISM Units are TOTALLY Digital in nature, because they are first, and foremost, Digital Cellphones, and when using the ISM Band, they use the same Hardware, for transmitting, and receiving. This means that ONLY a Digital Receiver, (Very High-end, and Expensive) programmed for the specific Frequency and Spreading Code, will be able to receive these signals. The design of these units allows for ISM Band to be divided into 10 chunks, or channels. Then the audio is digitized, and added to the selected Spreading Code, that then spreads the resulting RF, over the entire Channel Frequency chunk, making it very hard to even see on a Spectrum Analyzer. This is the instrument that Big Brother uses to find Comms, of Bad Guys, in the field. What we have here, then, is effectively, a cheap, small, portable, Comms device that uses Spread Spectrum Technology, to stay hidden, while in operation, from the normal snooping, and scanning, technology used by of 99% of the world. There is another feature of these Units, that for Private, Secure, Unit to Unit Comms, there is a PDN Code, (Ten Numerical Digits) that each unit has programmed in, that can be used, instead of the the regular Spreading Code. When in this mode, only these two units can hear, and communicate, with each other, because no other units will have the same PDN Code. Therefore it makes for a VERY Secure Comms System for CN AoO comms. This is as good of Comms Security that one can get, in the civilian world, without spending thousands of FRNs per unit." ...

Howard1955 · Dec 23, 2022

Cerberus Group said:
What's your thoughts on this...

http://[URL]https://www.empshield.com
/[/URL]

I don't know how a device like that could prevent an EMP or Carrington Event from affecting the wiring of a house or car. I could be wrong, but it seems that the only thing such a device could do is work as a circuit breaker, or surge-protector.

If I recall correctly, the reports were that during the Carrington Event the telegraph wires carried enough electricity from the pulse that they started fires.

I found this information about the EMP Shield product:

"The EMP Shield can see and protect all the electronics and equipment connected to your electrical system.

This is accomplished by shunting (shorting) the over voltage coming in from the Grid and the voltage surges that are collected within your home.

Whether the electrons are collected within your home or are attempting to come into your electrical system from outside the home (the grid), the EMP Shield will see the surge and protect your electrical system. The EMP Shield reacts in less than 1 billionth of a second. Since the shunting is completed incredibly fast, the over voltage is drained away from the equipment before the voltage can rise high enough to damage any equipment. We call this new technology SightSpeed™"

I don't understand how an electrical pulse can be "drained away" by this device - but electricity is not my area of expertise. I would think that having several grounding rods attached to a building's wiring would give the charge somewhere to go. Maybe someone here can school me about this.

@The Heretic ?

Here's a link to information about the Carrington Event:

The Carrington Event: History's greatest solar storm

Extreme solar storms such as the 1859 Carrington Event can play havoc with technology on Earth.

www.space.com

The Heretic · Dec 23, 2022

Howard1955 said:
I don't know how a device like that could prevent an EMP or Carrington Event from affecting the wiring of a house or car. I could be wrong, but it seems that the only thing such a device could do is work as a circuit breaker, or surge-protector.

Pretty much this ^ the best it could do is protect from a surge on incoming lines (as I think I mentioned). Other than that (if it could do that - I wouldn't bet on it), it would not protect electronics from EMP induced voltage/amperage in the electronics themselves. Only some kind of physical non-electronic shielding can do that.

A lot of electronics has some shielding built in to meet FCC RFI regs, and some to protect against EMI from other electronics (any kind of decent electronic receiver would have at least EMI shielding). But with external connections (antenna, power, speaker, etc.) that won't help much with EMP induced voltage/amperage (i.e., power) coming in via those external lines. And any external device like the "shield" gizmo, won't protect those either unless the connections are connected to the gizmo - and probably not even then.

Jay Walk · Dec 23, 2022

Other
I'm using bullets.

The Heretic · Dec 23, 2022

Howard1955 said:
I don't understand how an electrical pulse can be "drained away" by this device - but electricity is not my area of expertise. I would think that having several grounding rods attached to a building's wiring would give the charge somewhere to go. Maybe someone here can school me about this.

Shunting, if it was fast enough (and I doubt it would be), would accomplish this. I also doubt the device could do what it claims. And as I said, even if it did, it wouldn't protect devices from EMP induced directly to the device.

EMP/CME is an over rated threat/risk IMO - but one that is not that hard to deal with if it is a concern.

oremike · Dec 23, 2022

The Heretic said:
If there is fallout (nuclear or volcano), or other threats/risks (say it is dark and there are strangers wandering around outside), it would be beneficial to have a means of wireless or wired communication that doesn't require you to be outside your shelter.

So a 12ga then? Who ya gonna call?

The Heretic · Dec 23, 2022

3MTA3 said:
It's been a while since I evaluated these so I went back to the first link I posted. There is really a lot going on with these phones to provide security when used in "walkie talkie" mode as opposed to cellular.

..."There is a BIG technology difference between the iDen/ISM units and the FRS Units, in that the FRS units are just FM TwoWay Analog Radios, that can be picked up on ANY UHF Scanner and listened to, whereas the iDen/ISM Units are TOTALLY Digital in nature, because they are first, and foremost, Digital Cellphones, and when using the ISM Band, they use the same Hardware, for transmitting, and receiving. This means that ONLY a Digital Receiver, (Very High-end, and Expensive) programmed for the specific Frequency and Spreading Code, will be able to receive these signals. The design of these units allows for ISM Band to be divided into 10 chunks, or channels. Then the audio is digitized, and added to the selected Spreading Code, that then spreads the resulting RF, over the entire Channel Frequency chunk, making it very hard to even see on a Spectrum Analyzer. This is the instrument that Big Brother uses to find Comms, of Bad Guys, in the field. What we have here, then, is effectively, a cheap, small, portable, Comms device that uses Spread Spectrum Technology, to stay hidden, while in operation, from the normal snooping, and scanning, technology used by of 99% of the world. There is another feature of these Units, that for Private, Secure, Unit to Unit Comms, there is a PDN Code, (Ten Numerical Digits) that each unit has programmed in, that can be used, instead of the the regular Spreading Code. When in this mode, only these two units can hear, and communicate, with each other, because no other units will have the same PDN Code. Therefore it makes for a VERY Secure Comms System for CN AoO comms. This is as good of Comms Security that one can get, in the civilian world, without spending thousands of FRNs per unit." ...

There are now cell phone scanners that can be used to at the very least detect cell phones even though some (CDMA) freq hop. Same with DMR/etc.

Now being able to intercept and listen to, that is a different thing and has more to do with encryption/etc. than the fact that they freq. hop.

I worked with early FHSS system in my job on DoD contracts and at the time (the 80s) it wasn't easy for the gov to even detect the crude FHSS transmitters we had for the testing. Since then, with a LOT of RF gear using FHSS and TDMA, making their RF seem to be hidden by background noise (at best) and harder yet to intercept/listen, the gov and private security concerns have come up with hardware to get around these issues.

That said, your typical Joe Blow is not going to have this kind of gear - it isn't cheap (at least $600 and on up) just to get the detection gear and has limited use. If SHTF, there will be Hams and others listening in to voice comms on Ham/FRS/GMRS/etc., but probably not cell phones/gov DMR/etc.

I have/use Starlink and it would be just as secure, more so, than an IDEN device, and harder to detect since it is a directional planar antenna with a narrow beam width. If SHTF is bad enough to take down Starlink, I have other options. The next step would be one of the digital modes in Ham bands - which would reduce the listening audience to Hams setup for those modes.

Tony617 · Dec 23, 2022

Cerberus Group said:
What's your thoughts on this...

EMP & Lightning Protection

The Worlds First Military Compliant Whole Home and Vehicle EMP Protection Device. EMP Defense for Solar Systems, Generators, Houses, Cars, Ham Radio and More

www.empshield.com

I put one on my 4x4 pickup truck and it is simple to install if there is room around you battery somewhere. For myself I had to pull the battery out but there was room to mount the EMP Shield next to the battery. I used the incluced velcro and also two long sheet metal screws. It also protects against solar flares as well if another Carrington Event happens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event

But I would not want to be driving if an EMP event happens since most of the cars and trucks will be dead on the road and working pickup is very bad news for me. They also have a new smaller design called the EMP micro shield which is a a bit smaller which would be good for cars and trucks that do not have have a lot of open space in their engine compartment.

https://www.empshield.com/product/micro/

I don't have any experience with any other products from EMP Shield. I would like to get a Home unit but hire an electrician since my circuit breaker box has 220v breakers at the top but watching the installation video for the home unit you need 20amp breakers at the top.

Tony617 · Dec 23, 2022

Tony617 said:
I put one on my 4x4 pickup truck and it is simple to install if there is room around you battery somewhere. For myself I had to pull the battery out but there was room to mount the EMP Shield next to the battery. I used the incluced velcro and also two long sheet metal screws. It also protects against solar flares as well if another Carrington Event happens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event

But I would not want to be driving if an EMP event happens since most of the cars and trucks will be dead on the road and working pickup is very bad news for me. They also have a new smaller design called the EMP micro shield which is a a bit smaller which would be good for cars and trucks that do not have have a lot of open space in their engine compartment.

https://www.empshield.com/product/micro/

I don't have any experience with any other products from EMP Shield. I would like to get a Home unit but hire an electrician since my circuit breaker box has 220v breakers at the top but watching the installation video for the home unit you need 20amp breakers at the top.