Washington Seattle Times applauds HB 1240 "AWB" for combatting "toxic masculinity"

[American123]

This is why I said "normal part of human biology" because intersex is not a frequency that even comes close to "normal". Lots of things in life are "natural" that are not normal, these are treated as conditions. Intersex is not the same thing as transgender, citing so is a huge strawman in the discussion.

Gosh do they love to use these anomalies as somehow justification for insane people to act insane.

 

[Koda]

There is no evidence for a genetic, biologic component to the relation between gender "identities" and actual biologic sex/equipment.

This is an answer to the question I asked. Thank you for answering it.

 

[OldBroad44]

Yeah. At NWFA there seems to be some of everybody in the house.

Don't forget that there are those few rare cases of those who felt from earliest childhood they had the wrong body. Nothing was known about why when I was teaching this stuff. I looked now and got a Mayo Clinic writeup that took the woke line. Sigh.

My guess is that in these few rare cases of real gender dysphoria, gender dysphoria at birth, something has gone wrong with the biology that tells the human brain which sex it is. Perhaps, for example, there is a mutation in the control genes telling the hormone receptor genes in the brain to turn on and produce hormone receptor molecules. If that happened, the entire rest of the body could be a normal male or female, but the brain might not know about it.

 

[Koda]

Yeah. At NWFA there seems to be some of everybody in the house.

Don't forget that there are those few rare cases of those who felt from earliest childhood they had the wrong body. Nothing was known about why when I was teaching this stuff. I looked now and got a Mayo Clinic writeup that took the woke line. Sigh.

My guess is that in these few rare cases of real gender dysphoria, gender dysphoria at birth, something has gone wrong with the biology that tells the human brain which sex it is. Perhaps, for example, there is a mutation in the control genes telling the hormone receptor genes in the brain to turn on and produce hormone receptor molecules. If that happened, the entire rest of the body could be a normal male or female, but the brain might not know about it.

but do we even know that people from their beginning (birth, infancy, child... "earliest childhood") truly "felt" they had the wrong body? I suspect that social influence disproportionally outweighs mutations, or other biological conditions which are well established as extremely rare.

 

[OldBroad44]

There is no evidence for a genetic, biologic component to the relation between gender "identities" and actual biologic sex/equipment. It is all mental/behavior, shaped by society at large in different parts of the world over millennia.

Huh? There is close to a 100% correlation between gender identity and actual biological equipment. Those with male genitals, for example, nearly all think they are male. And those with female genitals nearly all think they are females.

In humans there tends to be segregation of work by gender. But which gender does what appears to be culturally determined. In some cultures it's women who weave. In some it's men. In some farming is done by males, in some females. So gender roles with respect to work seem almost entirely determined by culture. I suspect that's what you meant. The only exception I know of is hunting large sea mammals, which is always done by men.

 

[American123]

Yeah. At NWFA there seems to be some of everybody in the house.

Don't forget that there are those few rare cases of those who felt from earliest childhood they had the wrong body. Nothing was known about why when I was teaching this stuff. I looked now and got a Mayo Clinic writeup that took the woke line. Sigh.

My guess is that in these few rare cases of real gender dysphoria, gender dysphoria at birth, something has gone wrong with the biology that tells the human brain which sex it is. Perhaps, for example, there is a mutation in the control genes telling the hormone receptor genes in the brain to turn on and produce hormone receptor molecules. If that happened, the entire rest of the body could be a normal male or female, but the brain might not know about it.

Yep, that's all fine and dandy, they can feel they are whatever they are, but since the reality is they are still what they are they can still use the appropriately matching restroom, locker-room, and sports team.

 

[Koda]

Huh? There is close to a 100% correlation between gender identity and actual biological equipment. Those with male genitals, for example, nearly all think they are male. And those with female genitals nearly all think they are females.

I will of course let him speak for himself if he chooses, but my guess is he meant within the context of "identities" as in people identifying as the opposite gender.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Huh? There is close to a 100% correlation between gender identity and actual biological equipment. Those with male genitals, for example, nearly all think they are male. And those with female genitals nearly all think they are females.

In humans there tends to be segregation of work by gender. But which gender does what appears to be culturally determined. In some cultures it's women who weave. In some it's men. In some farming is done by males, in some females. So gender roles with respect to work seem almost entirely determined by culture. I suspect that's what you meant. The only exception I know of is hunting large sea mammals, which is always done by men.

What I mean is the whole concept of "but I'm ""wired differently""" to have lustful/sexual attractions to same sex IE, no DNA/genetic component to being gay/lesbian/asexual/bisexual/pansexual/whatever is out there, or to behave differently from the societal expectations of the sex; and so forth. Not necessarily "OK, I have a dick, I must be a man" or "ok, I have boobs and ovaries, I must be a woman" ; that's the standard but the idea of "what IS a man's role?, what is the expectation of the man?" Or vice versa for the ovary bearing beings; that is societal/behavior related. Not biologic. It's a biologic thing to have sex, yes but it is not so to have specific ideas of what's sexy, attractive, what's not, what "turns" people on and so forth.

 

[OldBroad44]

but do we even know that people from their beginning (birth, infancy, child... "earliest childhood") truly "felt" they had the wrong body? I suspect that social influence disproportionally outweighs mutations, or other biological conditions which are well established as extremely rare.

We're talking about kids who started asserting their concept of their sex as soon as they could barely talk, who had nobody around them modeling that behavior or pushing em toward it. That is, every social influence was pushing them to accept the gender identity that conformed with their biology.

And social influence isn't going to override something like a mutation that eliminates the function of a hormone receptor. When a male child has complete androgen receptor deficiency, he looks completely like a girl and is treated like a girl. But none of that social influence can make him go through puberty and start menstruating because he as no ovaries or uterus.

There's a social trend to imagine nearly everything is socially determined. But a lot is biologically determined.

 

[Koda]

We're talking about kids who started asserting their concept of their sex as soon as they could barely talk, who had nobody around them modeling that behavior or pushing em toward it. That is, every social influence was pushing them to accept the gender identity that conformed with their biology.

this part lost me, I dont understand it. It seems to contradict itself...
if every social influence was pushing them to accept an identity that matched their biology why or how could they start asserting their concept of sex? Do children that young even have a concept of sex? How does a child who isnt old enough to barely talk know what sex even is?

 

[Howard1955]

Pretty sure they've forgotten the definition of 'masculinity'. If they ever knew.

Evil triumphs when good men do nothing. A good man can be a gentleman who is capable of extreme violence when that is needed.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

 

[Knobgoblin]

View attachment 1492897

 

[Koda]

View attachment 1492897

we need a roll eyes emoji.... ;P

 

[CamoDeafie]

we need a roll eyes emoji.... ;P

We do...? or this or

 

[OldBroad44]

What I mean is the whole concept of "but I'm ""wired differently""" to have lustful/sexual attractions to same sex IE, no DNA/genetic component to being gay/lesbian/asexual/bisexual/pansexual/whatever is out there, or to behave differently from the societal expectations of the sex; and so forth. Not necessarily "OK, I have a dick, I must be a man" or "ok, I have boobs and ovaries, I must be a woman" ; that's the standard but the idea of "what IS a man's role?, what is the expectation of the man?" Or vice versa for the ovary bearing beings; that is societal/behavior related. Not biologic. It's a biologic thing to have sex, yes but it is not so to have specific ideas of what's sexy, attractive, what's not, what "turns" people on and so forth.

The business of who is attracted to whom is a different business. Gay men don't think they are women. Nor do lesbian women think they are male. They are simply sexually attracted to the same sex instead of the opposite sex. Basically we don't know why. We do know that it happens in other species. For example, female birds of various species may partner up and establish a nest together. If one or both are sneaking extramarital matings, they may even raise chicks together successfully. Occasionally someone would visit me and look at my ducks bathing and mating on their little pond and notice-- "Hey isn't that two females mating?" My response: "Many female ducks are versatile." They mated with males too. But might have a gf they liked better than the boys.

In some human societies male bisexuality was the norm. In Socrates day, love of men and boys for each other was apparently often considered a higher more nobel form of love than love of men for women. Some men apparently still preferred other women, but many men copulated with their wives only to produce children and went to other men or boys for enjoyment. But in plenty of societies male homosexuality was illegal and severely punished. People didn't seem to get as upset about lesbians. Most usually had no choice but to mate enough to produce children. And where men had multiple wives or concubines they might not care if one wife wasnt especially eager in bed. When they had enough affluence and independence British women might set up housekeeping together. They acted like housemates in public. What they did in private, who knew?

As for biology, every time someone announces they have found a gene for homosexuality, the claim gets retracted or turns out to not be reproducible. That's been going on for decades.

An interesting fact: the more boys his mother has borne before him, the more likely a boy is to be homosexual.

 

[CamoDeafie]

What I'm saying applies to "transgender" people too. There's no real evidence that their thinking, their feelings, their attractions are biologic /genetic in nature. Perhaps they have hormonal imbalances,but it's not enough to make their sexual identities or gender identities their entire thing. Take that away, what are they left with? Something mental?

Edit. Example.

A person born with penis and testicles, claims to be a woman trapped in the body, but there's no genetic predisposition or component, no real biologic component other than maybe hormone imbalances; and is attracted to conventional men.. take out the "transgender" identity, and we are left with a man who is attracted to other men, with serious mental issues/behavior issues outside the norm of society, depending on the society.

 

[Koda]

What I'm saying applies to "transgender" people too. There's no real evidence that their thinking, their feelings, their attractions are biologic /genetic in nature. Perhaps they have hormonal imbalances,but it's not enough to make their sexual identities or gender identities their entire thing. Take that away, what are they left with? Something mental?

Edit. Example.

A person born with penis and testicles, claims to be a woman trapped in the body, but there's no genetic predisposition or component, no real biologic component other than maybe hormone imbalances; and is attracted to conventional men.. take out the "transgender" identity, and we are left with a man who is attracted to other men, with serious mental issues/behavior issues outside the norm of society, depending on the society.

everytime I try to research this I wind up only finding the same scientific consensus, gender disphoria.

side note but relevent, in order to get gender affirming care the doctor has to diagnose the patient with gender dysphoria. Otherwise its cosmetic surgery and not covered by insurance. Note: I have not been able to fact check this but have heard of this and so far have not been able to disprove it. (if true its not something the media is going to readily disclose).

 

[OldBroad44]

this part lost me, I dont understand it. It seems to contradict itself...
if every social influence was pushing them to accept an identity that matched their biology why or how could they start asserting their concept of sex? Do children that young even have a concept of sex? How does a child who isnt old enough to barely talk know what sex even is?

Biology is real. Baby humans are not just tabula rasa, empty slates for the environment including society to write on. This was a wrong concept propagated by psychologists. If humans were infinitely moldable, psychologists, who would give advice about the molding, would be much more important than if human intelligence, personality, and behavior have strong genetic components. Totalitarian states such as Soviet Russia often adopted a science policy saying that humans are infinitely moldable, so the New Soviet Man could be shaped to work his butt off willingly in exchange for nothing. And by simply forcing one generation to act that way under whip and death threats, all subsequent generations would inherit that pattern and be totally self-sacrificing voluntarily. This was called "inheritance of acquired characters," Lysenkoism." Geneticists said that isn't how biology works. So the Soviet Union killed off all its geneticists. Those were the Soviet peers of my own mentors. Soviet/Russian biology stinks to this day. Psychology in US has lagged behind biology by decades. However, most psychologists now realize that biology is real, and genes have a huge influence on things like intelligence, personality, etc. The American popular culture has not caught up.

Human babies apparently know what sex they are. When all goes well, society only reinforces what the baby's instincts are already telling him. Something has probably gone biologically wrong in the baby with gender dysphoria. His biological programming as to what sex he is is mistaken. So there is a conflict between who he thinks he is and how he is being treated. When he is old enough to express himself at all he starts objecting.

On average, boys are more interested in things. Girls are more interested in people. As soon as eyes can focus, newborn baby girls will look longer at pictures of faces. Boys will look longer at pictures of moving objects. When old enough to play with toys, most girls choose the doll. Most boys choose the toy truck. These are just averages. I was/am more interested in things than people. Only got interested in people after I was about 40. Undoubtedly part of why I ended up as a scientist, not a nurse.

Babies are all born with distinctive personalities . And individual biologies. Some things can be changed greatly by environmental influences, including people. Some just a little, some not at all.

Sex determination in all parts of the body including the brain is strongly controlled by hormones. The hormones act by binding to hormone receptor on the surface of the cells. There are doubtless regulatory hormones in each tissue that establish in which tissues the hormone receptors are produced. The XY boy who has a broken receptor for testosterone looks like a girl because his cells can't bind and use the testosterone he produces. And no amount of social influence will change the broken receptor and allow his body to use testosterone and develops more like a boy.

Now suppose instead that the boy has a normal testosterone receptor. But the regulatory gene that told the brain to produce testosterone receptor in the brain was defective. The brain would be female but it would be in a normal male body. My speculation only. But reasonable based upon hormones, receptors, and regulatory genes work.

 

[OldBroad44]

What I'm saying applies to "transgender" people too. There's no real evidence that their thinking, their feelings, their attractions are biologic /genetic in nature. ...

True. Their condition doesn't appear to be biological because it doesnt exist at all except for the true intersexes and extraordinarily rare cases of true gender dysphoria present from birth. So lets round off and say that 99% of people currently thinking or claiming they have gender dysphoria dont. They are normal boys with personalities somewhat more effeminate than average boys. They are tomboy girls with personalities and interests more masculine than most girls. They are gay boys who are confused when they find themselves attracted to men. And lesbian girls when attracted to other girls. They are girls approaching puberty, a time when girls are very vulnerable to contagious hysteria. (The entire Salem witch trials was caused by a mass hysteria by prepubertal girls.) So a group of girls who hang out together suddenly all convince each other that they all have gender dysphoria. They are ordinary men just lying about it so they can compete in women's sports. And they are male criminals lying about it so they can get sent to female prisons.

Salem had no witches. The Emperor had no clothes. And with the exceptions I've mentioned, we have no gender dysphoriacs.

That doesn't mean those claiming gender dysphoria are all lying. Most probably are not. But that doesn't mean they don't have a problem. The lesbians and gay guys will need to accept their sexual preferences and, if they come out, deal with the reactions of parents, relatives, and others. The guy with the more feminine personality or interests may find himself having to deal with the contempt and rejection of his macho father. And the male prisoner who is lying to get into a female prison might be being regularly raped in the mens prison. Its clear that there is a whole lot of pain out there. But true gender dysphoria is not the cause of very much of it.