Washington Seattle Times applauds HB 1240 "AWB" for combatting "toxic masculinity"

[Koda]

it is like it is impossibly difficult to imagine another point of view.

Im very open to imagining other points of view. On this subject Ive been searching a very long time and cannot find anything. Can you share a peer reviewed biology journal that shows its a normal part of human biology to be born in the wrong body?

 

[monkeybutler]

Im very open to imagining other points of view. On this subject Ive been searching a very long time and cannot find anything. Can you share a peer reviewed biology journal that shows its a normal part of human biology to be born in the wrong body?

Not a great question. You are mixing biological and sociocultural. There is no such thing as "the wrong body" in a biological sense unless it is set against some kind of culturally-produced priority, but then it no longer is a biological question at all.

it is a biological certainty that intersex persons occur naturally in the world, as well as those with XO and XXY genotypes.

Interesting how so-called "toxic masculinity" gets flipped over into Chapter 9,254 of The Tranny Wars." For as whiney and insipid as I find the whole "fragility" assertion, I am starting to think it has some explanatory power.

 

[American123]

Right, right, me being "IDGAF" and wondering why so many people get so sadly would up about this is gaslighting.

i don't think that word means what you think it means, and it is a pretty nasty accusation.

"i think the world is this way"
"i think the world is that way"
"GASLIGHTinG!! UNSCANNABLE!"

it is like it is impossibly difficult to imagine another point of view. And once again, this is why we will continue to lose legal battles. this thread is pretty much an inverse image of the ridiculous sociological assertions in the preample of hb 1240 about toxic masculinity and whatnot. Right down in the same hole. Yin and yang, ding and dong.

Enjoy Engaging with the enemy. Watch out for their purple-haired hench-wymen.

Lot's of word salad, but 100% dodges every point of issue that I pointed out as examples of societal contention currently. You take no stance on the matter, which allows you to remain elusive and never get directly pinned as being full of crap in a belief that is asinine. It's textbook, I get it. No big deal. Going into politics?

These are real problems playing out in stores, schools, sports, medicine, and until there is a definitive answer that serves as the foundation for how our society exists as people coexisting, these problems will only continue to cause strife for the populace and it is currently children and women who are already suffering the most from this and at risk for even more.

 

[monkeybutler]

Lot's of word salad, but 100% dodges every point of issue that I pointed out as examples of societal contention currently. You take no stance on the matter, which allows you to remain elusive and never get directly pinned as being full of crap in a belief that is asinine. It's textbook, I get it. No big deal. Going into politics?

These are real problems playing out in stores, schools, sports, medicine, and until there is a definitive answer that serves as the foundation for how our society exists as people coexisting, these problems will only continue to cause strife for the populace and it is currently children and women who are already suffering the most from this and at risk for even more.

Right, I am being flim flammy and shiz because I am not thinking about a penis and testicles in the Women's bathroom all the time. You are welcome to keep chaising that though.

 

[Koda]

Not a great question. You are mixing biological and sociocultural.

Its a very valid question and Im not mixing or asking anything about sociocultural topics.

 

[monkeybutler]

Its a very valid question and Im not mixing or asking anything about sociocultural topics.

You very much are, but I already gave you your answer. Intersex occurs naturally. In greater proportions than you would imagine, And since you want it all in biological terms, there are several speices which show plasticity in sexual anatomy well after they are born.

Do you understand there is a differnence betwwen sex and gender?

 

[American123]

You very much are, but I already gave you your answer. Intersex occurs naturally. In greater proportions than you would imagine, And since you want it all in biological terms, there are several speices which show plasticity in sexual anatomy well after they are born.

Do you understand there is a differnence betwwen sex and gender?

The only difference between sex and gender is that language is used to denote them to be more or less specific. From a language standpoint it would be impractical to only have the term "males" to use to reference every person within that group, there are subgroups that can be more specific.

Man - male, adult human.

Woman - female, adult human.

Males are boys, young men, men, etc.

Females are girls, young women, women, etc.

 

[Koda]

You very much are, but I already gave you your answer. Intersex occurs naturally. In greater proportions than you would imagine, And since you want it all in biological terms, there are several speices which show plasticity in sexual anatomy well after they are born.

Do you understand there is a differnence betwwen sex and gender?

I didnt ask about what occurs naturally, or in other species. Gender is a social construct, Im asking about biology. And I dont see any answer to my question.

 

[American123]

Right, I am being flim flammy and shiz because I am not thinking about a penis and testicles in the Women's bathroom all the time. You are welcome to keep chaising that though.

Same word salad, nothing of substance. To claim "I'm not thinking about it" has no bearing on the reality that it is a problem that currently is impacting society and causing significant strife.

I'd say you're being an idiot here, but I won't because that would be being less than excellent to you.

 

[monkeybutler]

.

I'd say you're being an idiot here, but I won't because that would be being less than excellent to you.

You already crossed that threshold with the gaslighting accusation.

 

[monkeybutler]

I didnt ask about what occurs naturally, or in other species. Gender is a social construct, Im asking about biology. And I dont see any answer to my question.

You asserted the notion of 'nornal biologically' and I quite clearly answered that there is no such thing, but that sexual variation is clearly part of nature, which is as close to an idea of 'biologically normal' as one can come.

 

[Koda]

You asserted the notion of 'nornal biologically' and I quite clearly answered that there is no such thing, but that sexual variation is clearly part of nature, which is as close to an idea of 'biologically normal' as one can come.

So there's no such thing as normal healthy biology?

 

[monkeybutler]

So there's no such thing as normal healthy biology?

Not in the way you are asserting it, since you are laying on cultural ideas of normal, whether you understand that or not.

iIf you are talking about purely physical things with known frequency distributions of functional and not so functional, like blood pressure, sure. But that ain't gender.

 

[msgriff]

I do recognize that there are some who are truly intersex. The percentage of the population with a phenotype that is not classifiable as either male or females, which is the true prevalence of intersex, is 0.018%, or 18 people per 100,000. Beyond that, we should be addressing mental health, and not biological, issues.

edit:sp

 

[Koda]

Not in the way you are asserting it, since you are laying on cultural ideas of normal, whether you understand that or not.

Nevermind. This is not at all what Im asserting I asked a simple question and it remains unanswered. Theres no need to continue if my question isnt going to be answered.

 

[OldBroad44]

I didnt ask about what occurs naturally, or in other species. Gender is a social construct, Im asking about biology. And I dont see any answer to my question.

Hello @Koda --To us biologists, 'male' and 'female' are terms that are biologically defined. In species having two sexes, males produce large numbers of small zippy gametes. Females produce smaller numbers of much bigger gametes that usually carry not just the female's contribution of DNA. They also carry a food supply that nourishes the earliest stages of development. This definition works for all two-sex species, whether they are people, frogs, alligators, water molds such as Achlya, two sex plants such as spinach and Cannabis, and male and female flowers or flower parts in plants that have male and female parts on each plant.

If you are a male mammal such as a human your gametes are called 'sperm'. Imagine hordes of them swimming furiously up the female reproductive system, each carrying a banner saying "Have DNA. Will travel." If the sperm horde is lucky, a huge Egg is traveling down the fallopian tube to meet the horde. Imagine her carry a sign saying "This way guys. I got DNA too. And I brought lunch." She is also sending out chemical signals saying "Over here! This way for a good time!" Fact is, unless she tells the sperm horde were to go, they will swim right by without noticing her at all or stopping to ask for directions. Then after one sperm makes it inside the Egg there is an emergency because there are dozens of others trying to get in, and if any others get in there will be lethal chromosomal imbalances. So the Egg quickly changes her surface so it is no longer receptive to sperm. Imagine the egg surface now made of a brick wall with signs on it saying "Go away! Get lost, losers! I've got a headache!" And the rest of the millions of sperm, rejected, go off to die. Life is short and hard for most sperm.

Inside the egg, the DNA from the egg and the winner sperm join. A zygote is born. About half will die because of genetic problems or developmental accidents. When it happens early the woman may experience just a late or skipped menstruation. When it happens later the woman has a spontaneous miscarriage, and she may experience the same grief as when a child goes to term and is stillborn. Most unviable fetuses die and are removed from the woman's body by miscarriage before the fourth month. Couples knowing this often wait to announce a pregnancy until the fourth month.

In humans and other mammals sex is chromosomally determined. XX develops into a female with ovaries and female genitals and a modest number of huge eggs. XY develops into a male with male genitalia, including testes that produce huge numbers of small zippy sperm. But development is complicated and sometimes things go wrong. There can be intersexes, individuals born with a mix of genital characteristics. For example, sometimes the female releases two eggs, each is fertilized, and two zygotes are produced. If both live and stay separate the result is twins. But sometimes the two zygotes fuse and produce a zygote that develops into a fetus that is a mosaic of tissues from two different individuals. Where those individuals are of different sexes the baby is a patchwork of male and female tissue and may be an intersex. Another way intersexes can arise is when an XY baby carries a mutation in the gene for the receptor of testosterone. When this happens the result can be an intersex where there is some but not enough androgen/testosterone receptor activity. Where there is no testosterone receptor activity (complete androgen insensitivity syndrome) the XY baby looks like a normal baby girl and is assumed by all to be a girl until she fails to go through puberty. Then when the apparent girl is examined "she" turns out to have no ovaries, fallopian tubes, or uterus. Intersexes are normally sterile. They are a tragic mistake in genes or in development, not a separate sex. They are down there at a fraction of a percent of human births, and are also found in all other mammals.

There is no way to change a human male into a human female or vice versa by hormonal, surgical, or any other treatment. You can make them appear more like the other sex by such interventions. A normal male who has his penis and testes removed and takes hormones to make his body appear more feminine is not a female. He has no ovaries and no eggs. Intersexes often have obviously abnormal genitals at birth and are usually operated on to try to make them appear closer to whichever sex appears closest.

There apparently are genuine cases of gender dysphoria, cases were the individual from earliest childhood is absolutely sure he/she is mentally the other sex. It's extraordinarily rare. Probably a fraction of a fraction of a percent. This is from info back in the 197Os, when I taught this stuff in Genetics classes at U of MN. The best source back then was a book titled Man, Woman -- Boy, Girl. Current peer reviewed bio lit would do you no good now. The woke crowd now control all the journals including Science and Nature.

There also used to be cases of apparent later developed gender dysphoria. But these normally straightened out by themselves when kids went through puberty. Now the trans movement is trying to convince every such child to have himself surgically and chemically mutilated before puberty. The trans movement also wants to convince all girls who are tomboys that they are actually boys in girls bodys. I was a tomboy. I never had any doubts about being a girl. I just had the action levels and interests more typical of boys. No big deal back then. Relatives quickly learned I wanted sports equipment and science related stuff for Christmas, not jewelry or dolls, and never blinked.

 

[Koda]

Hello @Koda --To us biologists, 'male' and 'female' are terms that are biologically defined.

So theres a biologist in the house... thank you for that explanation. It appears then that sex is binary and being born in the wrong body is not a biological event.

 

[American123]

I do recognize that there are some who are truly intersex. The percentage of the population with a phenotype that is not classifiable as either male or females, which is the true prevalence of intersex, is 0.018%, or 18 people per 100,000. Beyond that, we should be addressing mental health, and not biological, issues.

edit:sp

No one can get themselves pregnant, even these people still have more of one than another from a function standpoint.

Plus, genetic defects (that's what these are) are not a "new sex" they are simply a human that during development in utero experienced an aberration.

 

[CamoDeafie]

There is no evidence for a genetic, biologic component to the relation between gender "identities" and actual biologic sex/equipment. It is all mental/behavior, shaped by society at large in different parts of the world over millennia.

 

[Koda]

Plus, genetic defects (that's what these are) are not a "new sex" they are simply a human that during development in utero experienced an aberration.

This is why I said "normal part of human biology" because intersex is not a frequency that even comes close to "normal". Lots of things in life are "natural" that are not normal, these are treated as conditions. Intersex is not the same thing as transgender, citing so is a huge strawman in the discussion.