Washington Ruby Ridge lite

[Mooseman]

The way you policed resulted in mistakes paid for in blood. Why do you think line-of-duty deaths are down by almost 50% since the late 80s and 90s despite perps being more well armed and better trained than ever?

Better tactics, better equipment, better training. The days of Sheriff Bill and Deputy Bob are over. Cameras today would have gotten police from your generation fired or sued.

Other than minor Injuries during arrests of Drunks , I can't recall any officers being Killed or shot in our city and county while I was there. Of course , we weren't a Big city and our county was Large and mostly Cattle, Citrus , and phosphate mines. Law Enforcement was respected and the Citizens trusted us and as such were great sources of Information when crimes were being committed. We had Police Training ... we didn't have Paramilitary training/ we had no swat teams, we had officers who could shoot straight .
Funny...here we Have "Sheriff Terry and Deputy Jody " and a new guy that serves as a Sniper where i live now, and they don't have all the fancy gear and armored vehicles, no body cameras, and they are well respected here as our LEOs and doing just fine.

 

[No_Regerts]

Other than minor Injuries during arrests of Drunks , I can't recall any officers being Killed or shot in our city and county while I was there. Of course , we weren't a Big city and our county was Large and mostly Cattle, Citrus , and phosphate mines. Law Enforcement was respected and the Citizens trusted us and as such were great sources of Information when crimes were being committed. We had Police Training ... we didn't have Paramilitary training/ we had no swat teams, we had officers who could shoot straight .
Funny...here we Have "Sheriff Terry and Deputy Jody " and a new guy that serves as a Sniper where i live now, and they don't have all the fancy gear and armored vehicles, no body cameras, and they are well respected here as our LEOs and doing just fine.

Its not your police doing well, its your citizens.

 

[xlsbob]

There is still not enough information here for me to have a real opinion on who was right. I know that living out in the country there is a major difference in how I would answer the door in the middle of the night to just someone at the door or someone with a marked police car sitting in my driveway. Answering the door to known cops with a gun in hand is stupidity in my personal opinion.

 

[albin25]

I'm still wondering, where was the urgency?
Other than first officer being/feeling "run off", the welfare check seemed to find the subject fairly alive/well and there was really no need to follow-up until daylight. It's not like there were hostages, and it's not like he was threatening to kill himself (moot at this point). Although given the way the authorities responded by returning with armor and snipers, you'd think that was the case.
What we're left with, yet again, is just another one-sided CYA narrative by the only surviving cast members of another sh1tshow, that also get to write their own reviews.

…..and I should add, the deceased may indeed have been a delusional, overwound, idiot with authority issues, but fact is, he wasn't an immediate threat until the situation was escalated by those with the real control.

 

[bbbass]

Trust me.. I have no like for Felons or people who Commit serious crimes , but at the same time , I have a major problem with Killing someone because they are a gun owner on their own property IF they didn't discharge their weapon at Law Enforcement. There is a thin blue line there and too often it seems these days it gets crossed, and Of Course the DA is not going to press charges on a LEO unless evidence such as videos , etc. come to light that show Improper use of Deadly Force , and there is a public outcry for Justice.
I can testify to the fact that Not all cops are the good guys you think they are. A Sheriff told me once "Protect and Serve does not mean the people , You Protect and Serve the Law !"
What Happened to NON-LETHAL use in this case... 40mm bean bags, rubber buckshot, etc. ?
Certainly , NO Officer wants to get shot or have his fellow officers shot , but at the same time , No Family wants a Member of their family shot and killed by Police . You Accept the Danger of being shot everyday you put on the Uniform because it is a dangerous world out there. We were taught Fight or Flight... Most Criminals will try and run away , it's the ones that don't run that gets your Spidey sense on full alert because you know it can get ugly fast.
The finest use of a Police Sniper I have seen is when he Shot the gun out of the perps hand from 100 + yards away and a very distraught man was taken into custody alive.
Because of Public Trust in Law Enforcement, LEO's should be held to Higher Standards because I guarantee you this, If the Citizens who own guns ever decided that Law Enforcement is out of control and banded together, there are not enough Officers in the USA to stop them . Just 10% of all Hunters are a Larger army than the whole U.S. Military .

IMO, non-lethal is ridiculous when used, or expected by the public to be used, against an armed subject.

And promotion of the idea that snipers or anybody else can shoot the gun out of the hand, or shoot'em in the arm or leg or whatever, encourages and unrealistic and unfair expectation the public has that miraculous feats of sharpshooting can commonly occur. I'm not a LEO, but I've been very close to law enforcement, still am, and I can't imagine any dept is training with shoot the arm, leg, etc, instead of center mass.

"Killing someone because they are a gun owner on their own property IF they didn't discharge their weapon at Law Enforcement."

This is where we have a major disagreement. I can't think of any tactical arrest briefing on a known aggressive actor with a gun that would order officers not to shoot unless fired upon. It only takes one shot for an officer to get hurt or even dead. How can it be that those would be the rules of engagement... makes no sense to me, and if I was under those orders I'd resign and find a better dept to work with.

The first duty of an officer is to go home safe. Period. Protect and serve does not mean to foolishly get dead.

To make this personal, let's say I come to your house because your wife called me and wanted me to check on you, I'm armed concealed carry, you come outside and start yelling, waving a gun, pointing it at me, acting all crazy... I WILL shoot you. On your own property. Doesn't matter a whit. You endanger my life and you're gone.

Do I blindly trust the law? NO! But I purposely live in a small rural town where I personally know 90% of the officers. These guys and gals are just like anybody else. They have lives, they have dreams, they have kids, and families that they want to go home to. I have worked with these people for 40yrs. I haven't met one with attitude yet, so I'm goin with that. If I had to live in the big city I might feel differently. But this N Idaho case I think is rural. Right up there where Skinheads and Survivalists habitate. Some of those are tweakers, and some of those are sh!thead azzhats. Who am I going to believe? No doubts at all.

BTW, I shoot with local officers and deputies, both male and female, on the 2nd Saturday of every month, weather conditions allowing. It's all cool, we don't allow any dickheads, civvy or popo, at our matches.

 

[bbbass]

The way you policed resulted in mistakes paid for in blood. Why do you think line-of-duty deaths are down by almost 50% since the late 80s and 90s despite perps being more well armed and better trained than ever?

Better tactics, better equipment, better training. The days of Sheriff Bill and Deputy Bob are over. Cameras today would have gotten police from your generation fired or sued.

^^^ This 100%. Intelligent men adjust to respond to the times we live in.

My little town of 12,000 people has a SWAT team. And it been used a time or two. We aren't large enough to have been given an armored car like Walla Walla, but I'm sure if we had one it would be deployed with the SWAT van to keep officers safe. Extra sharpshooter in the hatch.

I'm proud to have helped put the very first SWAT van of the La Grande PD together and into service. I installed all radios, lights, computer terminal, etc, in that vehicle. We have an award of appreciation on the wall of the shop I retired from. We were also the first to provide body cameras to officers. Acceptance was slow at first, as officers were cautious about being spied on. However, it didn't take long for them to start winning in court with body cam video. Drunks lying about how they were treated were summarily convicted or more commonly pleaded out as soon as they saw the vid before trial during discovery, and even one suicide attempt with shots fired by the perp after the officers went into the home. If it wasn't for that body cam footage, only the dashcam pointed down the street and the gawkers cellphone vid would be available and the perp and family could claim all sorts of things that didn't happen... Which they did... They lost!

As much as I hate change, not all changes are bad.

bb

 

[mkwerx]

^^^ This 100%. Intelligent men adjust to respond to the times we live in.

My little town of 12,000 people has a SWAT team. And it been used a time or two. We aren't large enough to have been given an armored car like Walla Walla, but I'm sure if we had one it would be deployed with the SWAT van to keep officers safe. Extra sharpshooter in the hatch.

I'm proud to have helped put the very first SWAT van of the La Grande PD together and into service. I installed all radios, lights, computer terminal, etc, in that vehicle. We have an award of appreciation on the wall of the shop I retired from. We were also the first to provide body cameras to officers. Acceptance was slow at first, as officers were cautious about being spied on. However, it didn't take long for them to start winning in court with body cam video. Drunks lying about how they were treated, and even one suicide attempt with shots fired by the perp after the officers went into the home. If it wasn't for that body cam footage, only the dashcam pointed down the street and the gawkers cellphone vid would be available and the perp and family could claim all sorts of things that didn't happen.

bb

You make the perfect point about why every cop in America needs to be equipped with a body cam of some sorts, I'd go so far as to say even UC's, when the tech has improved enough, should be wearing cams and recording all their activities while working. Multiple camera angles will give the most unbiased evidence available.

 

[Mooseman]

IMO, non-lethal is ridiculous when used, or expected by the public to be used, against an armed subject.

And promotion of the idea that snipers or anybody else can shoot the gun out of the hand, or shoot'em in the arm or leg or whatever, encourages and unrealistic and unfair expectation the public has that miraculous feats of sharpshooting can commonly occur. I'm not a LEO, but I've been very close to law enforcement, still am, and I can't imagine any dept is training with shoot the arm, leg, etc, instead of center mass.

"Killing someone because they are a gun owner on their own property IF they didn't discharge their weapon at Law Enforcement."

This is where we have a major disagreement. I can't think of any tactical arrest briefing on a known aggressive actor with a gun that would order officers not to shoot unless fired upon. It only takes one shot for an officer to get hurt or even dead. How can it be that those would be the rules of engagement... makes no sense to me, and if I was under those orders I'd resign and find a better dept to work with.

The first duty of an officer is to go home safe. Period. Protect and serve does not mean to foolishly get dead.

To make this personal, let's say I come to your house because your wife called me and wanted me to check on you, I'm armed concealed carry, you come outside and start yelling, waving a gun, pointing it at me, acting all crazy... I WILL shoot you. On your own property. Doesn't matter a whit. You endanger my life and you're gone.

Let me Make myself perfectly clear... My first duty as an Officer was to uphold and Obey the laws and go home every night. My Duty as a citizen now is to Assist Local Law enforcement if necessary , but to be safe and secure on my property in my home.

And if you came on my property in the middle of the night, and I meet you armed, the gun won't be pointed at you unless I am shooting you , you best NOT go for a weapon or you will never clear Leather before I blow you in half. You will be on Camera, you will be lit up by security lights and you will be looking square at a big Wolf Dog before you ever get out of your vehicle. If you ARE Law enforcement, your vehicle better be plainly marked and Lights going, then I will come outside with My 1911 holstered In My FBI Cant Holster on my hip where you will not see it. You are NOT allowed to enter Private Property here carrying a weapon unless you advise the Owner FIRST by Law, Only Law enforcement can do that. If I kill you and you have a Gun on you , I won't even be charged.
I don't have a wife But I have a Veteran Lady I Care for who shoots Expert Marksman as backup here.
If I am acting Crazy , it means I am having an allergic reaction to Medications or Bad Pie , so that would justify you ? Right.....
I'm glad I live in a Sane, Conservative part of the Country.

 

[bbbass]

but fact is, he wasn't an immediate threat until the situation was escalated by those with the real control.

Not sure what you are objecting to here. There certainly wasn't a rush to arrest... the attempt to arrest him was made two days later... in the early morning the day after the judge signed the warrant.

Escalated? Really??? According to testimony that I have no reason to distrust, he broke several laws during the welfare check. He's just supposed to get a pass on that???

Those with the real control. Yes. It's the real world. People with authority issues put themselves at risk. The alternative is to live in a lawless society where people can do whatever the frickyfracky they want... as much as I have some of that in me, it usually doesn't work out too well.

To me it sounds like another sh!ithead done gone. Less hassle for the rest of us.

 

[bbbass]

Let me Make myself perfectly clear... My first duty as an Officer was to uphold and Obey the laws and go home every night. My Duty as a citizen now is to Assist Local Law enforcement if necessary , but to be safe and secure on my property in my home.

And if you came on my property in the middle of the night, and I meet you armed, the gun won't be pointed at you unless I am shooting you , you best NOT go for a weapon or you will never clear Leather before I blow you in half. You will be on Camera, you will be lit up by security lights and you will be looking square at a big Wolf Dog before you ever get out of your vehicle. If you ARE Law enforcement, your vehicle better be plainly marked and Lights going, then I will come outside with My 1911 holstered In My FBI Cant Holster on my hip where you will not see it. You are NOT allowed to enter Private Property here carrying a weapon unless you advise the Owner FIRST by Law, Only Law enforcement can do that. If I kill you and you have a Gun on you , I won't even be charged.
I don't have a wife But I have a Veteran Lady I Care for who shoots Expert Marksman as backup here.
If I am acting Crazy , it means I am having an allergic reaction to Medications or Bad Pie , so that would justify you ? Right.....
I'm glad I live in a Sane, Conservative part of the Country.

Well, now that we've measured our peckers, you feel better? I hope so. It's important to keep you calm since you appear to be a little bit trigger happy.

If I am acting Crazy , it means I am having an allergic reaction to Medications or Bad Pie , so that would justify you ?

Well, if it weren't for your foolish liberal law about carrying on private property, no jury would convict me for shooting a crazy mad victim of bad pie that is threatening me with a gun. Don't worry, I won't give you a reason to shoot me otherwise. I'm a real friendly guy. As to who can outdraw the other... You're a funny man!!!

 

[bbbass]

My first duty as an Officer was to uphold and Obey the laws and go home every night.

That's two separate duties.

 

[slimmer13]

Let me Make myself perfectly clear... My first duty as an Officer was to uphold and Obey the laws and go home every night. My Duty as a citizen now is to Assist Local Law enforcement if necessary , but to be safe and secure on my property in my home.

And if you came on my property in the middle of the night, and I meet you armed, the gun won't be pointed at you unless I am shooting you , you best NOT go for a weapon or you will never clear Leather before I blow you in half. You will be on Camera, you will be lit up by security lights and you will be looking square at a big Wolf Dog before you ever get out of your vehicle. If you ARE Law enforcement, your vehicle better be plainly marked and Lights going, then I will come outside with My 1911 holstered In My FBI Cant Holster on my hip where you will not see it. You are NOT allowed to enter Private Property here carrying a weapon unless you advise the Owner FIRST by Law, Only Law enforcement can do that. If I kill you and you have a Gun on you , I won't even be charged.
I don't have a wife But I have a Veteran Lady I Care for who shoots Expert Marksman as backup here.
If I am acting Crazy , it means I am having an allergic reaction to Medications or Bad Pie , so that would justify you ? Right.....
I'm glad I live in a Sane, Conservative part of the Country.

Well, this went to a strange place

 

[Mooseman]

Well, now that we've measured our peckers, you feel better? I hope so. It's important to keep you calm since you appear to be a little bit trigger happy.

If I am acting Crazy , it means I am having an allergic reaction to Medications or Bad Pie , so that would justify you ?

Well, if it weren't for your foolish liberal law about carrying on private property, no jury would convict me for shooting a crazy mad victim of bad pie that is threatening me with a gun. Don't worry, I won't give you a reason to shoot me otherwise. I'm a real friendly guy. As to who can outdraw the other... You're a funny man!!!

I've probably slowed a bit from when I was at my peak , which was I could draw, fire accurately, and reholster in 6/10 second after almost 2 years of practice with a hip holster... Not braggin' just the Facts Ma'am, just the facts !
My Scorpion Shoulder Rig was a bit slower due to having to reach right to left draw, fire, and reholster 1.7 seconds.
If you can beat that score My hats off to you .
I'm very friendly to non threatening people and often provide coffee !

 

[bbbass]

I've probably slowed a bit from when I was at my peak , which was I could draw, fire accurately, and reholster in 6/10 second after almost 2 years of practice with a hip holster... Not braggin' just the Facts Ma'am, just the facts !
My Scorpion Shoulder Rig was a bit slower due to having to reach right to left draw, fire, and reholster 1.7 seconds.
If you can beat that score My hats off to you .
I'm very friendly to non threatening people and often provide coffee !

What, civilized ruralites offer beer! Lifers drink coffee all day long and into the night.

IDK, that seems pretty fast! How many shots? Anyway, I think you got me there!!! Again, . You crack me up. You're killin me!!!

 

[Mooseman]

What, civilized ruralites offer beer! Lifers drink coffee all day long and into the night.

IDK, that seems pretty fast! How many shots? Anyway, I think you got me there!!! Again, . You crack me up. You're killin me!!!

If you're staying the night you get Beer or Bourbon... otherwise you are driving outta here and we can't have that DUI thing going on.
I'm a Lifer... lol... and it was draw fire one shot into the bull at 15 ft or bust a balloon and reholster.
I'm No Jerry Mikulek by any means !

 

[bbbass]

If you're staying the night you get Beer or Bourbon... otherwise you are driving outta here and we can't have that DUI thing going on.
I'm a Lifer... lol... and it was draw fire one shot into the bull at 15 ft or bust a balloon and reholster.
I'm No Jerry Mikulek by any means !

I'd be too scared to spend the night with you! I might get "loaded" and then you'd shoot me for "carrying"-on.

Jerry has an incredible fast twitch capability. I think he's probably one of a kind. But hey the 6/10sec thing sounds amazing... I'd like to see that... not from the front of course.

 

[bbbass]

Well, this went to a strange place

Sorry, sometimes I just HAVE to engage.

 

[bbbass]

Just came back from a bathroom break... Wow!!! Check out this auction: A Colt Trapper win 94 in .45LC, a Ruger #1 engraved 18 of 50, a Ruger Red Label 30" 12ga

AUCTIONS ENDING SUNDAY! Ruger Woodside 12GA - Ruger No. 1 Engraved - Browning Model 12 28GA & 20GA Serial #34 and MORE!!

 

[leadcounsel]

These leftist anti-gun "utopia" states are simply out of control and I'm eager to leave.

As we've seen in this case, and in Colorado, and in I think it was Maryland recently with the "extreme protection order" - if you come to the door with a gun, the cops will justify shooting you.

So the lesson is, NEVER open your door for unexpected visitors. Talk thru the door, or use some form of call system at the door, cameras, speakerphone, etc.

These states using their cops as storm troopers and gestapo are really over-reaching...

 

[slimmer13]

Again, this was Bonner County Idaho. Sandpoint proper withstanding, one of the more conservative areas of the country.