Washington Ruby Ridge lite

[bbbass]

Again, this was Bonner County Idaho. Sandpoint proper withstanding, one of the more conservative areas of the country.

My first radio shop boss was raised in the Sandpoint area. The boys slept in a tent outside year round cuz they were a good sized family. He was hardcore ex-marine. Beer drinkin solid man. Not a big man but he was still climbing radio towers like a monkey at 65. I had to step up because I was a soft USCG Aircrewman.

 

[slimmer13]

My first radio shop boss was raised in the Sandpoint area. The boys slept in a tent outside year round cuz they were a good sized family. He was hardcore ex-marine. Beer drinkin solid man. Not a big man but he was still climbing radio towers like a monkey at 65. I had to step up because I was a soft USCG Aircrewman.

I like the area. When the kids get out of school, and the wife no longer has to commute, I want to make the short hop over the border. Especially with the way this state is going.

Hopefully with my involvement with BCSO SAR, I won't be forever branded an "apple maggot".

 

[NW Backpacker]

There may be important information that we don't know, perhaps verbal threats, but based only what is presented in the 2 articles, it appears that the mistake was a totally unjustified arrest warrant. The articles said on the initial welfare check the man came out waving a gun and telling the cop to get off his property. It did not say that he pointed the gun at the cop, or that he endangered anyone. A reasonable person would find nothing unusual about greeting a midnight visitor in a rural setting (or even in NYC!) with a gun and telling them to get off the property - cop or not. Once he did that, it is clear that he is well - the reason for your visit ceases at that point. Say "Thank you Mr. Johnson, we were just checking to make sure you are OK" then leave, and don't come back.

Other lessons:
NEVER open your door for anyone you don't know. Talk loudly thru the door, or open a window. Keep your gun out of sight while talking to the visitor.

 

[bbbass]

I've probably slowed a bit from when I was at my peak , which was I could draw, fire accurately, and reholster in 6/10 second after almost 2 years of practice with a hip holster... Not braggin' just the Facts Ma'am, just the facts !
My Scorpion Shoulder Rig was a bit slower due to having to reach right to left draw, fire, and reholster 1.7 seconds.
If you can beat that score My hats off to you .

BTW, I don't get the part of that drill that has you reholster that fast. We always train as SD shooters to return the handgun to chest ready position and assess for further threats, including looking around and over each shoulder. Holstering is not done under the clock because that would be unsafe, and we aren't unsafe. We're not one of those clubs where guys shoot their leg or foot on a reholster!!

I can do this in 3 seconds while smiling.

Start Shooting Better Episode 10: 9-Shot Close Speed Drill - Lucky Gunner Lounge

three IDPA targets that are shoulder to shoulder. We're going to draw, fire [left to right] 1 shot on the first target, one on the second target, two to the third target. Those all go to the bodies. Another one on the second target to the body, another one on the first target to the body, and then across the top, one to [each head, left to right] for a total of 9 rounds. And the goal is to do it in 3.5 seconds or less, clean.



Check out the vids in the link... you'll like this drill!

 

[Mooseman]

We didn't have that fancy shooting course back then... you had 6 shots in your service revolver or 7 shots in your 1911... DOH !
I wasn't practicing quick draw for Law enforcement, more for Cowboy action, but it fine tuned me for drawing on duty !
For our Practice , we drew, fired a double tap , and stood at ready assessing the threat, before reholstering. We then drew, fired 1 shot into each of 2 targets then 2 more shots in either target, and speed reload clear , and reholster. There were no Glocks, Berettas , etc. .40 cal did not exist and 9mm was considered wimpy. .38 spc, 357 mag, and 45 auto were the guns of choice. My choice was the .45 Colt 1911 because I could fire six, drop the mag and load another and still have a round ready to go under the hammer saving time not having to rack the slide.

 

[No_Regerts]

We didn't have that fancy shooting course back then... you had 6 shots in your service revolver or 7 shots in your 1911... DOH !
I wasn't practicing quick draw for Law enforcement, more for Cowboy action, but it fine tuned me for drawing on duty !
For our Practice , we drew, fired a double tap , and stood at ready assessing the threat, before reholstering. We then drew, fired 1 shot into each of 2 targets then 2 more shots in either target, and speed reload clear , and reholster. There were no Glocks, Berettas , etc. .40 cal did not exist and 9mm was considered wimpy. .38 spc, 357 mag, and 45 auto were the guns of choice. My choice was the .45 Colt 1911 because I could fire six, drop the mag and load another and still have a round ready to go under the hammer saving time not having to rack the slide.

Boy, how things have changed. Draw, start at the chest work your way up to the head tracking along the spine, probably takes 6 to 8 shots, then break down the pelvis. Moving the whole time and keeping the gun fed.

None of the two to the chest, one at the head, get shot during the process stuff.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Regarding shooting drills and the like...
First I am not a law enforcement officer...
And my only experience in "combat shooting" ...as been in combat.
But when your life is on the line...In my experience , shooting and hitting the threat , until , they are no longer a threat , is important to surviving the encounter.

In regards to the OP...
I would like to see a AAR type of report , before forming any real idea or opinion.
Andy

 

[bbbass]

Boy, how things have changed. Draw, start at the chest work your way up to the head tracking along the spine, probably takes 6 to 8 shots, then break down the pelvis. Moving the whole time and keeping the gun fed.

That sounds great! I'm gonna try that next time I go to the pistol range... probably in March or April... man, it's coming down out there and I have to travel across the valley to a family dinner. Lots of drifts on that highway!

 

[No_Regerts]

That sounds great! I'm gonna try that next time I go to the pistol range... probably in March or April... man, it's coming down out there and I have to travel across the valley to a family dinner. Lots of drifts on that highway!

The concept is to open as many holes as possible while tracking up the spine to possibly get a CNS hit. As you go up, it leads you to the head. Training to shoot at the pelvis in the event of body armor or inability to hit the head is a good practice because can at least limit mobility. As a hunter, I often try to break a shoulder on the animal if I want to anchor it.

Most paper targets have the x-ring area too low and people develop "training scars" that can lead to hits that arent incapacitating. Besides practicing to hit higher in the chest, it helps to train to track upward vs putting two holes too low. This also helps with the "oh schit" jerk on the first shot that dives the first round low.

 

[bbbass]

The concept is to open as many holes as possible

Thanx for the good explanation above!

I have been talking here about the need to make a large # of holes to stop the threat vs having a large caliber with a small magazine. Haven't gotten much traction. But all the research points to needing either a CNS hit or the antagonist passing out from hypovolemic shock due to a large # of holes. What I hadn't thought about is tracking up the spine as you suggest... we don't shoot that way at IDPA and since I can't afford to go to real SD training, I haven't gotten that kind of tactical training and practice. Imma lackin.

Might not work for more than one combatant tho... need that Tommy Gun.

 

[mkwerx]

The concept is to open as many holes as possible while tracking up the spine to possibly get a CNS hit. As you go up, it leads you to the head. Training to shoot at the pelvis in the event of body armor or inability to hit the head is a good practice because can at least limit mobility. As a hunter, I often try to break a shoulder on the animal if I want to anchor it.

Most paper targets have the x-ring area too low and people develop "training scars" that can lead to hits that arent incapacitating. Besides practicing to hit higher in the chest, it helps to train to track upward vs putting two holes too low. This also helps with the "oh schit" jerk on the first shot that dives the first round low.

Nipples & up!

 

[bbbass]

Nipples & up!

I like it! Gotta fix my practice habits... those IDPA targets have me shooting low.

 

[Mooseman]

I like it! Gotta fix my practice habits... those IDPA targets have me shooting low.

If ya shoot em in the gonads... They go right down !

 

[bbbass]

If ya shoot em in the gonads... They go right down !

LMAO

 

[mkwerx]

I like it! Gotta fix my practice habits... those IDPA targets have me shooting low.

Ya, if you think about it, the X ring is right about solar plexus level. A hit there might be painful, might take the wind of the assailant's sails, or might miss anything vital. Being jacked up on adrenaline (and maybe drugs) it probably wouldn't even immediately phase a crazed assailant. It'd likely be a beyotch, and could cause infection / eventual death from blood loss, but probably wouldn't be an immediate fight stopper.

 

[Mooseman]

That's why I carry .45 ACP...and i have some prized ammo no longer available that where ever I hit you in the torso, you are going down . 117 gr ICQ that open up to about 1.5 inches only when it hits flesh and 5 razor petals bore a hole and doesn't exit the body so it gets the full on shockwave and massive instant blood loss.

 

[bbbass]

That's why I carry .45 ACP...and i have some prized ammo no longer available that where ever I hit you in the torso, you are going down . 117 gr ICQ that open up to about 1.5 inches only when it hits flesh and 5 razor petals bore a hole and doesn't exit the body so it gets the full on shockwave and massive instant blood loss.

That's badazz man

I carry this:



I have one of these next to my bed:




And my doorways are lined with these:

 

[Mooseman]

 

[Mooseman]

That's badazz man

I carry this:

View attachment 532903

I have one of these next to my bed:

View attachment 532904


And my doorways are lined with these:

View attachment 532905

This is Badazz... and Its all Mine. It guards the house !


"When SHTF , I prefer something Belt Fed ! " Bert Gummer

 

[Geardo]

Texas doesn't give carte blanche to shoot trespassers. If that was true, there would be a lot of dead illegals on ranches.

Cop on your property with no lights... I'm thinkin that's not real probable. Headlights and flashlights. Now if you are talking about an arrest team... I think they assemble in the dark and nothing goes until there is at least some light... I don't have an in to that particular set of tactics.

Cop in plain clothes carrying a rifle... again, not real probable. They always have vests that are clearly marked.

You are right. I looked it up before posting. I tried to temper it with the word "some" it is fairly loose there.

I agree the cases I listed were improbable, but they are what I thought of when I started examing the issues of cops being able to come to your door unannounced without a warrent, armed, and shoot you if you act like an idiot or bubblegum with a weapon. Just seems off/wrong to me.

You said in another post that lax tactics of the past lead to officer deaths. Won't argue that, but how many citizens have been killed with these agressive tactics.

Is there a happy middle ground That is safer for non-leo and cops while still protecting everyones rights?