Washington Ruby Ridge lite

[GWS]

Another case for electronic surveillance and recording.

Amen to that!

 

[Geardo]

I wouldn't put blame ( at least based off from the very limited info) on the sway team.
I would put it on th initial deputy who did the welfare check.
And from the article the victim didn't have a warrant, the deputy issued the arrest warrant after the inital welfare check.

But the two peices of info needed to make an intelligent armchair quarterback assessment are:
Why did his wife ask for the welfare check?
And what took place during the welfare check intially?

Maybe the wife said he was suicidal?
Maybe during the initial check he told the deputy he wanted to kill cops, and got out by suicide by cop,
Maybe he exited the house through the back door to circle the house and shoot cops?

There just isn't any factual information to justify this being a unlawful or lawful death.

Any one could make a decision for both sides based off from the very limited information given.

My issue is that it seems no actual crime was committed that led to this. Why does a cop have a right to come on your property if you haven't committed a crime. Lets say he was just raging drunk, and thats why he was waving the gun like an idiot.

If I trespassed on someones property at midnight, and they scared me off with a gun, does that justify going back with an APC and shooting him! ?

Cops are just citizens.

 

[bbbass]

My issue is that it seems no actual crime was committed that led to this. Why does a cop have a right to come on your property if you haven't committed a crime. Lets say he was just raging drunk, and thats why he was waving the gun like an idiot.

If I trespassed on someones property at midnight, and they scared me off with a gun, does that justify going back with an APC and shooting him! ?

Cops are just citizens.

Cops are the ones that society hires to enforce laws... and without laws we have raging anarchy and a lunatic society.

A cop has a right to come on your property because the law says so.

A cop has a right to come on your property when a relative has requested a welfare check.

Crimes committed during said welfare check are: Brandishing a firearm. Reckless endangerment. Failure to comply. The deputy filed a report/complaint, the prosecutor requested an arrest warrant, the judge found legal cause to sign an arrest warrant, the arrest was attempted, the man got crazy and pointed a firearm at arrest team, arrest team could have been killed since perp was pointing firearm. Perp was taken out before that happened. I don't see the problem!!

An officer of the law is NOT TRESPASSING on your property... they have a legal right to come to your door. Especially when responding to a call.

An arrest team "sneaking around in the dark" is NOT TRESPASSING... they are operating under the legal jurisdiction of a judge and an arrest warrant. Too bad for you if you resist with a firearm. You can be taken out at any time.

Drunks waving firearms will be shot... too damn bad. Boo hoo. He got lucky in the first encounter that the deputy didn't drop him right then and there. Drunks waving knives will be shot too.

What's with all this sympathy? It's based on the initial story from a lawsuit filed by the perps relative. And therefore some cynicism needs to be applied. According to testimony relayed in this thread, the facts of the matter were somewhat different than what the story lead me to believe. Can we say Ferguson, etc?

Recently, a bodybuilder that was apparently under the influence of steroids was discovered by responding police in the act of repeatedly stabbing and slashing his beautiful date that he arranged on Tinder. He was tased 4 times in order to get him to stop. He died. Boo hoo. I'm guessing the officers didn't want to shoot because he was on top of that poor girl. Her life has been permanently changed. But there is a bunch of sympathy relayed for the perp... that is obscene!!!

 

[Geardo]

Cops are the ones that society hires to enforce laws... and without laws we have raging anarchy and a lunatic society.

A cop has a right to come on your property because the law says so.

A cop has a right to come on your property when a relative has requested a welfare check.

Crimes committed during said welfare check are: Brandishing a firearm. Reckless endangerment. Failure to comply. The deputy filed a report/complaint, the prosecutor requested an arrest warrant, the judge found legal cause to sign an arrest warrant, the arrest was attempted, the man got crazy and pointed a firearm at arrest team, arrest team could have been killed since perp was pointing firearm. Perp was taken out before that happened. I don't see the problem!!

An officer of the law is NOT TRESPASSING on your property... they have a legal right to come to your door. Especially when responding to a call.

An arrest team "sneaking around in the dark" is NOT TRESPASSING... they are operating under the legal jurisdiction of a judge and an arrest warrant. Too bad for you if you resist with a firearm. You can be taken out at any time.

Drunks waving firearms will be shot... too damn bad. Boo hoo. He got lucky in the first encounter that the deputy didn't drop him right then and there. Drunks waving knives will be shot too.

What's with all this sympathy? It's based on the initial story from a lawsuit filed by the perps relative. And therefore some cynicism needs to be applied. According to testimony relayed in this thread, the facts of the matter were somewhat different than what the story lead me to believe. Can we say Ferguson, etc?

Recently, a bodybuilder that was apparently under the influence of steroids was discovered by responding police in the act of repeatedly stabbing and slashing his beautiful date that he arranged on Tinder. He was tased 4 times in order to get him to stop. He died. Boo hoo. I'm guessing the officers didn't want to shoot because he was on top of that poor girl. Her life has been permanently changed. But there is a bunch of sympathy relayed for the perp... that is obscene!!!

Re: cops being allowed to enter your property.
I don't think it is that clear cut. A brief search shows their are current and recent supreme court cases on this very issue. Also it probably varies by state law. What about texas where you have some carte Blanche to shoot tresspassers at night. Would a cop on your property at midnight with no lights be treated the same? What if he is plain clothes carrying a rifle? How would you know it was a cop?

 

[Geardo]

Recently, a bodybuilder that was apparently under the influence of steroids was discovered by responding police in the act of repeatedly stabbing and slashing his beautiful date that he arranged on Tinder. He was tased 4 times in order to get him to stop. He died. Boo hoo. I'm guessing the officers didn't want to shoot because he was on top of that poor girl. Her life has been permanently changed. But there is a bunch of sympathy relayed for the perp... that is obscene!!!

I agree, but totally different than someone on there own property minding their own business!

 

[Mooseman]

So you are saying Cops now have the right to be Judge, Jury, and Executioner when a citizen tries to protect themself on there own property or when there is No other victim or Hostage in danger at the time? This flies in the Face of the Constitution where you are innocent until PROVEN guilty. Cops do NOT know the mental state of a person or their sobriety if they are 50 or 100 yards away looking thru a scope . Hell, you don't even know if the gun is real or if its a pellet gun . Too many Innocent Veterans , citizens, homeowners, etc have been killed by overzealous cops, snipers, and SWAT teams and even 1 death in my opinion is a travesty of Justice.
Granted, When I was in Law enforcement in the 70's and early 80's. if a guy pulled a gun and raised it towards Me, Then I was authorized to use deadly force. If he came at me with a knife , I was authorized to use deadly force.
If a perp Fired on an officer, all other Officers on the scene were authorized at that point to use deadly force.
We didn't have Snipers and Armored vehicles and Body armor or use Military Tactics. We were Policemen and Sheriffs !
The Finest Agency I ever worked with was Alaska State Troopers. Just about everybody in Alaska was armed , and while Cautious , they respected gun owners and property rights and did everything in their power to effect an Arrest rather than use deadly force.
Now being retired , I still look over my shoulder because there are people out there that I put in jail who may want me dead.
How am I supposed to tell who might be gunning for me in the middle of the night ? Cop or Drug Cartel soldiers ? The Crazy Guy that Gets out of Federal lockup after 9 years this coming April ?

 

[Mooseman]

Re: cops being allowed to enter your property.
I don't think it is that clear cut. A brief search shows their are current and recent supreme court cases on this very issue. Also it probably varies by state law. What about texas where you have some carte Blanche to shoot tresspassers at night. Would a cop on your property at midnight with no lights be treated the same? What if he is plain clothes carrying a rifle? How would you know it was a cop?

In some States , Warrants can only be served during Daylight hours , because of Innocent people being killed when trying to defend their home against intrusion by cops who had the WRONG address and were awakened from a deep sleep !

 

[Geardo]

Cops are the ones that society hires to enforce laws... and without laws we have raging anarchy and a lunatic society.

A cop has a right to come on your property because the law says so.

A cop has a right to come on your property when a relative has requested a welfare check.

Crimes committed during said welfare check are: Brandishing a firearm. Reckless endangerment. Failure to comply. The deputy filed a report/complaint, the prosecutor requested an arrest warrant, the judge found legal cause to sign an arrest warrant, the arrest was attempted, the man got crazy and pointed a firearm at arrest team, arrest team could have been killed since perp was pointing firearm. Perp was taken out before that happened. I don't see the problem!!

An officer of the law is NOT TRESPASSING on your property... they have a legal right to come to your door. Especially when responding to a call.

An arrest team "sneaking around in the dark" is NOT TRESPASSING... they are operating under the legal jurisdiction of a judge and an arrest warrant. Too bad for you if you resist with a firearm. You can be taken out at any time.

Drunks waving firearms will be shot... too damn bad. Boo hoo. He got lucky in the first encounter that the deputy didn't drop him right then and there. Drunks waving knives will be shot too.

What's with all this sympathy? It's based on the initial story from a lawsuit filed by the perps relative. And therefore some cynicism needs to be applied. According to testimony relayed in this thread, the facts of the matter were somewhat different than what the story lead me to believe. Can we say Ferguson, etc?

Recently, a bodybuilder that was apparently under the influence of steroids was discovered by responding police in the act of repeatedly stabbing and slashing his beautiful date that he arranged on Tinder. He was tased 4 times in order to get him to stop. He died. Boo hoo. I'm guessing the officers didn't want to shoot because he was on top of that poor girl. Her life has been permanently changed. But there is a bunch of sympathy relayed for the perp... that is obscene!!!

3rd and last reply, NOT trying to berate you. I don't doubt your LEGAL interpretation, (and I appreciate and value the dissenting opinions posted here) especially if the alternative version of events posted in this thread is closer to the truth, but I would question if ethically/morally everything done sits well with people here.

 

[bbbass]

3rd and last reply, NOT trying to berate you. I don't doubt your LEGAL interpretation, (and I appreciate and value the dissenting opinions posted here) especially if the alternative version of events posted in this thread is closer to the truth, but I would question if ethically/morally everything done sits well with people here.

That's OK with me... we can disagree. IMO the ethics of law enforcement are generally clear. The law is behind them unless they lie. And I stand with them as they go about trying to do the work our society has asked them to do.

I see no reason to assume the deputy lied about what he encountered during his welfare check while responding to that call. Azzhat comes out waving a gun, tells him to shove off, refuses to drop the weapon. The deputy would have been legally correct to drop him right then. He was probably being ethical by not doing so and giving the guy a chance to surrender to the arrest team.

Sorry man, that's how I see it. I don't buy the original story. I am buying the testimony of the dept. I don't have the built-in suspicion of law enforcement that others have, or that I have for the rest of government.

 

[bbbass]

I agree, but totally different than someone on there own property minding their own business!

He was minding his own business until he confronted a deputy, while outside his house, and armed with a pistol.

 

[Geardo]

I see no reason to assume the deputy lied about what he encountered during his welfare check while responding to that call. Azzhat comes out waving a gun, tells him to shove off, refuses to drop the weapon. The deputy would have been legally correct to drop him right then. He was probably being ethical by not doing so and giving the guy a chance to surrender to the arrest team.

Polite dissagreement is so rare on the internet, just want to say thanks.

I was not calling into question the ethics of the individual officer. I agree he was doing his job as the law lays it out. I was questioning the law itself, and weather it seems ethical to people.

 

[bbbass]

Re: cops being allowed to enter your property.
I don't think it is that clear cut. A brief search shows their are current and recent supreme court cases on this very issue. Also it probably varies by state law. What about texas where you have some carte Blanche to shoot tresspassers at night. Would a cop on your property at midnight with no lights be treated the same? What if he is plain clothes carrying a rifle? How would you know it was a cop?

Texas doesn't give carte blanche to shoot trespassers. If that was true, there would be a lot of dead illegals on ranches.

Cop on your property with no lights... I'm thinkin that's not real probable. Headlights and flashlights. Now if you are talking about an arrest team... I think they assemble in the dark and nothing goes until there is at least some light... I don't have an in to that particular set of tactics.

Cop in plain clothes carrying a rifle... again, not real probable. They always have vests that are clearly marked.

 

[Mooseman]

Playing Devil's Advocate here... What would you say if the man had had a visitor between the original incident and when the arrest team arrived and it was an innocent person walking out the back that got shot, not the suspect ?
My attitude changed when the woman holding the baby was shot and Killed at Ruby Ridge... It makes LEO's look bad !

 

[bbbass]

I was not calling into question the ethics of the individual officer. I agree he was doing his job as the law lays it out. I was questioning the law itself, and weather it seems ethical to people.

Ah. I wouldn't doubt that there is a lot of disagreement on the ethics of individual laws. Some seem so arbitrary, even to me. I'm kind of a law and order guy... heavy on the orderly part. I dislike disorderly society.

Yes, the guys that make the laws be it city, state, fed, are all a bunch of polititians (sp) that mostly don't know their butts from a hole in the ground. Especially lately.

 

[bbbass]

Playing Devil's Advocate here... What would you say if the man had had a visitor between the original incident and when the arrest team arrived and it was an innocent person walking out the back that got shot, not the suspect ?
My attitude changed when the woman holding the baby was shot and Killed at Ruby Ridge... It makes LEO's look bad !

I'd say it's unlikely in today's weak law enforcement ROE that a person "walking" unarmed would get shot. And that if that happened it would be a travesty.

 

[bbbass]

So you are saying Cops now have the right to be Judge, Jury, and Executioner when a citizen tries to protect themself on there own property or when there is No other victim or Hostage in danger at the time? This flies in the Face of the Constitution where you are innocent until PROVEN guilty. Cops do NOT know the mental state of a person or their sobriety if they are 50 or 100 yards away looking thru a scope . Hell, you don't even know if the gun is real or if its a pellet gun . Too many Innocent Veterans , citizens, homeowners, etc have been killed by overzealous cops, snipers, and SWAT teams and even 1 death in my opinion is a travesty of Justice.
Granted, When I was in Law enforcement in the 70's and early 80's. if a guy pulled a gun and raised it towards Me, Then I was authorized to use deadly force. If he came at me with a knife , I was authorized to use deadly force.
If a perp Fired on an officer, all other Officers on the scene were authorized at that point to use deadly force.
We didn't have Snipers and Armored vehicles and Body armor or use Military Tactics. We were Policemen and Sheriffs !
The Finest Agency I ever worked with was Alaska State Troopers. Just about everybody in Alaska was armed , and while Cautious , they respected gun owners and property rights and did everything in their power to effect an Arrest rather than use deadly force.
Now being retired , I still look over my shoulder because there are people out there that I put in jail who may want me dead.
How am I supposed to tell who might be gunning for me in the middle of the night ? Cop or Drug Cartel soldiers ? The Crazy Guy that Gets out of Federal lockup after 9 years this coming April ?

Tactics have changed... more LEOs getting killed seem to warrant that change. IMO ROE is still weaker than it was then. I'm more in favor of LEOs going home intact than I am aggressive, crazy, drunk, drugged out, jerks being given so much leeway that officers are put at risk.

Your personal situation is different. But I'm wondering how many former LEOs have your attitude towards law enforcement... frankly I'm shocked that it's not directed towards perps.

"The Finest Agency I ever worked with was Alaska State Troopers. Just about everybody in Alaska was armed , and while Cautious , they respected gun owners and property rights and did everything in their power to effect an Arrest rather than use deadly force."

Sounds good to me. I'm not at those tactical briefings, and I don't know how onsite threat assessment is done. But I'm pretty convinced that when a perp has been aggressive towards law enforcement he is assigned a whole different level than a non-dangerous citizen would be.

 

[slimmer13]

Polite dissagreement is so rare on the internet, just want to say thanks.

I was not calling into question the ethics of the individual officer. I agree he was doing his job as the law lays it out. I was questioning the law itself, and weather it seems ethical to people.

Which law? I would hope that if someone thought I was in danger or was a danger to myself, that a cop would be willing to check up on me.

That doesn't mean, that if I were to assault that officer with a deadly weapon, that I wouldn't expect a whole bunch of cops to show back up. And if I didn't want to get shot by those cops, I'd probably be pretty compliant and sort everything out in court later.

 

[bbbass]

Yah, laws can be changed... don't like a particular law, there is a method to address any needed changes... usually you get nowhere. But that doesn't mean you can run amok because you disagree with the law. I'm non-compliant myself at times, but not when Johnny or Susie Law is interfacing with me... then it's yessir and yesmam that hopefully leads to us both saying "have a nice day"!

I don't get the whole aggressive towards law officer thing. I have several buddies that think that way... one had bad encounters where he was pulled over and search for booze, MJ, and underage girl, got booze poured out and got told to take the girl home, the other is a NPR listener.

 

[No_Regerts]

So you are saying Cops now have the right to be Judge, Jury, and Executioner when a citizen tries to protect themself on there own property or when there is No other victim or Hostage in danger at the time? This flies in the Face of the Constitution where you are innocent until PROVEN guilty. Cops do NOT know the mental state of a person or their sobriety if they are 50 or 100 yards away looking thru a scope . Hell, you don't even know if the gun is real or if its a pellet gun . Too many Innocent Veterans , citizens, homeowners, etc have been killed by overzealous cops, snipers, and SWAT teams and even 1 death in my opinion is a travesty of Justice.
Granted, When I was in Law enforcement in the 70's and early 80's. if a guy pulled a gun and raised it towards Me, Then I was authorized to use deadly force. If he came at me with a knife , I was authorized to use deadly force.
If a perp Fired on an officer, all other Officers on the scene were authorized at that point to use deadly force.
We didn't have Snipers and Armored vehicles and Body armor or use Military Tactics. We were Policemen and Sheriffs !
The Finest Agency I ever worked with was Alaska State Troopers. Just about everybody in Alaska was armed , and while Cautious , they respected gun owners and property rights and did everything in their power to effect an Arrest rather than use deadly force.
Now being retired , I still look over my shoulder because there are people out there that I put in jail who may want me dead.
How am I supposed to tell who might be gunning for me in the middle of the night ? Cop or Drug Cartel soldiers ? The Crazy Guy that Gets out of Federal lockup after 9 years this coming April ?

The way you policed resulted in mistakes paid for in blood. Why do you think line-of-duty deaths are down by almost 50% since the late 80s and 90s despite perps being more well armed and better trained than ever?

Better tactics, better equipment, better training. The days of Sheriff Bill and Deputy Bob are over. Cameras today would have gotten police from your generation fired or sued.

 

[Mooseman]

Tactics have changed... more LEOs getting killed seem to warrant that change. IMO ROE is still weaker than it was then. I'm more in favor of LEOs going home intact than I am aggressive, crazy, drunk, drugged out, jerks being given so much leeway that officers are put at risk.

Your personal situation is different. But I'm wondering how many former LEOs have your attitude towards law enforcement... frankly I'm shocked that it's not directed towards perps.

"The Finest Agency I ever worked with was Alaska State Troopers. Just about everybody in Alaska was armed , and while Cautious , they respected gun owners and property rights and did everything in their power to effect an Arrest rather than use deadly force."

Sounds good to me. I'm not at those tactical briefings, and I don't know how onsite threat assessment is done. But I'm pretty convinced that when a perp has been aggressive towards law enforcement he is assigned a whole different level than a non-dangerous citizen would be.

Trust me.. I have no like for Felons or people who Commit serious crimes , but at the same time , I have a major problem with Killing someone because they are a gun owner on their own property IF they didn't discharge their weapon at Law Enforcement. There is a thin blue line there and too often it seems these days it gets crossed, and Of Course the DA is not going to press charges on a LEO unless evidence such as videos , etc. come to light that show Improper use of Deadly Force , and there is a public outcry for Justice.
I can testify to the fact that Not all cops are the good guys you think they are. A Sheriff told me once "Protect and Serve does not mean the people , You Protect and Serve the Law !"
What Happened to NON-LETHAL use in this case... 40mm bean bags, rubber buckshot, etc. ?
Certainly , NO Officer wants to get shot or have his fellow officers shot , but at the same time , No Family wants a Member of their family shot and killed by Police . You Accept the Danger of being shot everyday you put on the Uniform because it is a dangerous world out there. We were taught Fight or Flight... Most Criminals will try and run away , it's the ones that don't run that gets your Spidey sense on full alert because you know it can get ugly fast.
The finest use of a Police Sniper I have seen is when he Shot the gun out of the perps hand from 100 + yards away and a very distraught man was taken into custody alive.
Because of Public Trust in Law Enforcement, LEO's should be held to Higher Standards because I guarantee you this, If the Citizens who own guns ever decided that Law Enforcement is out of control and banded together, there are not enough Officers in the USA to stop them . Just 10% of all Hunters are a Larger army than the whole U.S. Military .