OSP - Very PO'd !!! that I did not disclose my CHL

[Riot]

This really nails it.

The involved officer had no idea that the person she had pulled over had a weapon on their person.

On confirmation she knew only that the person had a CHL.

She THEN proceeded, based solely upon her knowledge that the person merely POSSESSED a CHL to ASSUME that he was a felon, etc.

It's not bout being proned out by a OSP officer, which, MIGHT have been justified.

It' about a lawful citizen being treated like a criminal and told of a law that exists only in an officer's head that is the problem.

There is NO problem or statute which justified the officer's response. THIS is the problem. Fail to grasp that and you fail to grasp the problem.

Policy, laws and procedures. If you know policy, laws and procedures, you will always succeed in LEO. When I was an MP in the Army, I made a lot of mistakes. I used to argue with people I pulled over and "assume" things rather than witness them and report on the facts. Just like with the motorcycle cop, I tried to find my niche- a "balance" of professionalism, verbal skills, tactfulness, discretion and community service. Now that I'm a Corrections Officer (i.e. "Glorified Babysitter") I've tried to remake my niche from my past experiences. It's an ongoing thing. You can't just walk in an treat every situation like the previous one, you have to adapt to the situation.

I still keep a copy of the rules, regulations and policies in my pocket...even after doing this job for 4 years. Policies change and I can't remember all the rules...but you can be darned sure that I don't enforce a rule that I'm not sure of or punish someone that I'm not sure is guilty.

I can spot this "Alpha Male/Female" behavior a mile away. It's someone poorly trained, trying to find their niche or someone with a chip on their shoulder. Either way, like I said, it should be addressed. This type of person is one that enters into a non-violent situation and makes it one...it creates tension and hostility where none is needed. Should the OP have shut his mouth, made a note of the officer's badge number and called her supervisor? That's my advice. But the officer was in the wrong and the behavior needs to be corrected and guided to someone who actually did something wrong. Having a CHL has nothing to do with anything. It's like me getting yelled at for being an organ donor.

Beating a dead horse now, but you guys get the idea....I just wish the blatant cop bashing would end, then this forum would be more enjoyable.

 

[iusmc2002]

Policy, laws and procedures. If you know policy, laws and procedures, you will always succeed in LEO. When I was an MP in the Army, I made a lot of mistakes. I used to argue with people I pulled over and "assume" things rather than witness them and report on the facts. Just like with the motorcycle cop, I tried to find my niche- a "balance" of professionalism, verbal skills, tactfulness, discretion and community service. Now that I'm a Corrections Officer (i.e. "Glorified Babysitter") I've tried to remake my niche from my past experiences. It's an ongoing thing. You can't just walk in an treat every situation like the previous one, you have to adapt to the situation.

I still keep a copy of the rules, regulations and policies in my pocket...even after doing this job for 4 years. Policies change and I can't remember all the rules...but you can be darned sure that I don't enforce a rule that I'm not sure of or punish someone that I'm not sure is guilty.

I can spot this "Alpha Male/Female" behavior a mile away. It's someone poorly trained, trying to find their niche or someone with a chip on their shoulder. Either way, like I said, it should be addressed. This type of attitude creates a non-violent situation and makes it one...it creates tension and hostility where none is needed. Should the OP have shut his mouth, made a note of the officer's badge number and called her supervisor? That's my advice. But the officer was in the wrong and the behavior needs to be corrected and guided to someone who actually did something wrong. Having a CHL has nothing to do with anything. It's like me getting yelled at for being an organ donor.

Beating a dead horse now, but you guys get the idea....I just wish the blatant cop bashing would end, then this forum would be more enjoyable.

I just wish people in positions of authority would stop picking on individuals who know more about a certain law than they do, but that ain't going to happen, so neither one of us should hold our breath...........

 

[ZigZagZeke]

A.P. Herbert's MISLEADING CASES IN THE COMMON LAW (1930), 12–16.

The Common Law of England has been laboriously built around a mythical figure – the figure of "The Reasonable Man."
In the field of jurisprudence this legendary individual occupies the place which in another science is held by the Economic Man, and in social and political discussions by the Average or Plain Man. He is an ideal, a standard, the embodiment of those qualities which we demand of a good citizen. No matter what may be the particular department of human life which falls to be considered in these Courts, sooner or later we have to face the question: Was this or was it not the conduct of a reasonable man? Did the defendant take such care to avoid shooting the plaintiff in the stomach as might reasonably be expected of a reasonable man? Did the plaintiff take such precautions to inform himself of the circumstances as any reasonable man would expect of an ordinary person having the ordinary knowledge of an ordinary person of the habits of wild bulls when goaded with garden forks and the persistent agitation of red flags?

I need not multiply examples. It is impossible to travel anywhere or to travel for long in that confusing forest of learned judgments which constitutes the Common Law of England without encountering the Reasonable Man. He is at every turn, an ever-present help in time of trouble, and his apparitions mark the road to equity and right. There never has been a problem, however difficult, which His Majesty's judges have not in the end been able to resolve by asking themselves the simple question, "Was this or was it not the conduct of a reasonable man?" and leaving that question to be answered by the jury.

This noble creature stands in singular contrast to his kinsman the Economic Man, whose every action is prompted by the single spur of selfish advantage, and directed to the single end of monetary gain. The Reasonable Man is always thinking of others; prudence is his guide, and "Safety First," if I may borrow a contemporary catchword, is his rule of life.

All solid virtues are his, save only that peculiar quality by which the affection of other men is won. For it will not be pretended that socially he is much less objectionable than the Economic Man. While any given example of his behavior must command our admiration, when taken in the mass his acts create a very different set of impressions.

He is one who invariably looks where he is going, and is careful to examine the immediate foreground before he executes a leap or a bound; who neither star-gazes nor is lost in meditation when approaching trapdoors or the margin of a dock; who records in every case upon the counterfoils of cheques such ample details as are desirable, scrupulously substituting the word "Order" for the word "Bearer", crosses the instrument "a/c Payee only," and registers the package in which it is dispatched; who never mounts a moving omnibus and does not alight from any car while the train is in motion; who investigates exhaustively the bona fides of every mendicant before distributing alms, and will inform himself of the history and habits of a dog before administering a caress; who believes no gossip, nor repeats it, without firm basis for believing it to be true; who never drives his ball till those in front of him have definitely vacated the putting-green which is his own objective; who never from one year's end to another makes an excessive demand upon his wife, his neighbors, his servants, his ox, or his ***; who in the way of business looks only for the narrow margin of profit which twelve men such as himself would reckon to be "fair," and contemplates his fellow merchants, their agents, and their goods, with that degree of suspicion and distrust that the law deems admirable; who never swears, gambles, or loses his temper, who uses nothing except in moderation, and even while he flogs his child is meditating only on the golden mean. Devoid, in short, of any human weakness, with not one single saving vice, sans prejudice, procrastination, ill-nature, avarice and absence of mind, as careful for his own safety as he is for that of others, this excellent but odious creature stands like a monument in our Courts of Justice, vainly appealing to his fellow-citizens to order their lives after his own example.

To return, however, as every judge must ultimately return, to the case which is before us – it has been urged for the appellant, and my own researches incline me to agree, that in that mass of authorities which bears upon this branch of the law there is no single mention of a reasonable woman.

 

[orygun]

He's supposed to inform the officer in question that he has a CHL even if he's unarmed? Are you fricking insane? This would be taken by most LE officers I know to be a threat.

He had no duty to inform under any law or precedent whatever. Telling a LEO that you have a PERMIT to carry but no GUN is tantamount to threatening the officer. Ask any LEO what they think of that statement and they will assume the same.

I have some good friends and family members that are police officers. I was going to ask all of them about this, but have only had the opportunity to ask one. He is a county Sheriff of a rural Oregon county and is a HUGE CHL supporter.
He backs everyone here who has said that you have no legal reason to disclose that you are carrying to any officer. Period.
When asked about the officer taking as a threat a person informing them that they have a CHL but aren't currently carrying a handgun....
He said, "That officer needs to go find another job!"

 

[Buddhalux]

I imagine that a huge percentage need to find a new job......

 

[Gunner3456]

Beating a dead horse now, but you guys get the idea....I just wish the blatant cop bashing would end, then this forum would be more enjoyable.

I just wish the LEO profession didn't attract so many people on a power trip. Then life would be so much more enjoyable.

I just spent 13 months and thousands of dollars getting my CHL back because a LEO lied about me and now I'm suing him. I expect to spend 100 grand on attorneys just to protect my rights. IMHO you can keep your opinion and I'll keep mine. No, IMHO I'll keep my opinion and you can shove yours unless you want to pay my legal fees.

 

[Jamie6.5]

I'll just leave this here:

"Ignorance of the law is no excuse"

I would add to that:
"Innocent until proven guilty"

 

[Jamie6.5]

Do you realize how many codes there are? There is no way a person can know them all. Do you hold all professions to such ridiculous standards are just ones with which you have emotional issues? Is your doctor required to know all diseases and symptoms are is he allowed to use reference materials?

Some codes/statutes are significantly more pertinent to the job than others.
Just as some facts/trends/technology is more pertinent to my job than others.

The FACT that this particular officer was so grossly misinformed about the law on CC, means to me that she has some work to do. IMO her shift supervisor needs to sit her down in a "study hall" and have her review the pertinent laws on CHL holders and their rights.

For the OP, her actions seem to have colored her decisions surrounding the entire exchange. I would go to court and bring up the tone of the exchange with the judge, and point out that the officer lost all semblance of objectivity, and that the charge(s)/fine(s) should be reduced as a result.

That is the price of "ignorance of the law."
It is a door that swings both ways. Or at least should.

 

[orygun]

The FACT that this particular officer was so grossly misinformed about the law on CC, means to me that she has some work to do. IMO her shift supervisor needs to sit her down in a "study hall" and have her review the pertinent laws on CHL holders and their rights.

x2!

 

[mpmarty]

Most cops realize when they walk up and see both my hands on the top of the steering wheel that I'm OK and probably have a CCW. The law says I must show the permit to an LEO if asked to. End of discussion. I once had a cop ask me for my pistol during a routine traffic stop for ten over. I told him "NO" and if he didn't like that to call his Sargent. Cop handed me my award for high performance driving and departed.

 

[Kevatc]

Most cops realize when they walk up and see both my hands on the top of the steering wheel that I'm OK and probably have a CCW. The law says I must show the permit to an LEO if asked to. End of discussion. I once had a cop ask me for my pistol during a routine traffic stop for ten over. I told him "NO" and if he didn't like that to call his Sargent. Cop handed me my award for high performance driving and departed.

Are you pooping me???!!!! Good grief. Why would a LEO want anyone to draw a gun even if it is just to hand it to them?????

As to the "high performance driving" award ... that is funny right there!

 

[Kevatc]

Beating a dead horse now, but you guys get the idea....I just wish the blatant cop bashing would end, then this forum would be more enjoyable.

Agreed, sometimes the bashing gets old but sometimes it is deserved. All cops have a tough job. Some are just better than others at handling the difficulties.

I had the great fortune to attend a Oregon Firearms Academy handgun course several summers ago where my class was the last day of a week long instructor development course. There were several LEO's (5-6) and they were awesome as far as instructors. They had great senses of humor but most importantly they were very citizen oriented in terms of gun ownership and use as a self defense tool. My point is that for all the "bad" cops that are bashed here there are probably 100 that are great people who support armed citizens.

 

[Grunwald]

Agreed, sometimes the bashing gets old but sometimes it is deserved. All cops have a tough job. Some are just better than others at handling the difficulties.

I had the great fortune to attend a Oregon Firearms Academy handgun course several summers ago where my class was the last day of a week long instructor development course. There were several LEO's (5-6) and they were awesome as far as instructors. They had great senses of humor but most importantly they were very citizen oriented in terms of gun ownership and use as a self defense tool. My point is that for all the "bad" cops that are bashed here there are probably 100 that are great people who support armed citizens.

Unfortunately it is the bad one that we remember.
It's like that with everything. You can go to a grocery store and go though a checkout one thousand times and never remember those cashiers that were efficient, but you get one turd and that turd will stick in your memory for a very long time.

 

[Redcap]

Unfortunately it is the bad one that we remember.
It's like that with everything. You can go to a grocery store and go though a checkout one thousand times and never remember those cashiers that were efficient, but you get one turd and that turd will stick in your memory for a very long time.

And no one likes a turd in the punchbowl.

 

[Tangent123123]

Unfortunately it is the bad one that we remember.
It's like that with everything. You can go to a grocery store and go though a checkout one thousand times and never remember those cashiers that were efficient, but you get one turd and that turd will stick in your memory for a very long time.

I don't know... If you've ever ordered from the McDonald's on Swan Island, I think the reverse applies. I think they only get 1 n 4 of my orders right.

Just sayin'...

 

[MountainBear]

And no one likes a turd in the punchbowl.

Unfortunately some people seem to think after they've seen one LEO be a turd, they all must be turds. That's too bad. Most aren't...

 

[Redcap]

Unfortunately some people seem to think after they've seen one LEO be a turd, they all must be turds. That's too bad. Most aren't...

You always remember that cup of punch with the turd in it, no matter how good all the previous ones were...

 

[MountainBear]

You always remember that cup of punch with the turd in it, no matter how good all the previous ones were...

Get over it. Getting bit by a leopard doesn't mean everything has spots. Judge everyone on their own actions. Otherwise, the problem is yours, not theirs...

 

[Redcap]

Get over it. Getting bit by a leopard doesn't mean everything has spots. Judge everyone on their own actions. Otherwise, the problem is yours, not theirs...

No, but getting bit by a leopard means you should be wary of leopards.

 

[MountainBear]

No, but getting bit by a leopard means you should be wary of leopards.

In which case you should keep your butt out of the jungle.

And also try reading the latter part of my last post. Judge everyone on their own actions.

I repeat that if you cannot judge everyone on their own actions, then the problem is yours, not theirs...