Washington On HB 1240 (2023)

[Jay Walk]

I already have back up AR parts.

Why would I need to watch a video?

 

[bradsteen]

That's a whole lot of speculation in that video.

Kind of reminds me of this video below which was just all speculation and turned out to be 100% wrong. Seems like a lawyer should know better. I don't question his intention and many of his videos are very helpful but it makes me very wary to listen to what he has to say.

Of course it's speculation - the text of the bill is intentionally vague to give as much leeway in interpretation as possible. The point he is making is that with this much grey area, it makes sense to assume the worst and hope for the best. That's his whole schtick - explaining how the text of bills/laws/regulations could be interpreted.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

I don't buy for a second that this bill bans all the individual parts found on an ar. I have a semi auto centerfire pistol and an identical one in 22lr only. Many of the parts are the same. Would the same part be legal if it's in my left hand and banned if it's in my right hand? No.

Similarly a muzzle device for a bolt action or lever gun rifle is the same muzzle device used on a banned "assault weapon". Is one illegal and the other not? No. It's only when the gun is configured according the new law that the gun would be banned.

What about a roll pin or screw that is used in an AR and is used in numerous other guns. No.

It's pretty obvious that if the parts for an AR are all together in a box that's going to meet their definition, but going into speculation like in the video about individual parts is very questionable Imo.

 

[fmvolume86]

I don't buy for a second that this bill bans all the individual parts found on an ar. I have a semi auto centerfire pistol and an identical one in 22lr only. Many of the parts are the same. Would the same part be legal if it's in my left hand and banned if it's in my right hand? No.

Similarly a muzzle device for a bolt action or lever gun rifle is the same muzzle device used on a banned "assault weapon". Is one illegal and the other not? No.

What about a roll pin or screw that is used in an AR? No.

It's pretty obvious that if the parts for an AR are all together in a box that's going to meet their definition, but going into speculation like in the video about individual parts is very questionable Imo.

SO WHAT ???? point it is they're banning parts !!! so you're logic is that unless its in a package but what if some parts are not available outside of a package..... regardless this is crazy and I'm so tired of people defending anything regarding anti-gunners...... When will people undertand that there is no comnpromise from them..... SO NO COMPROMISE FROM US, and on top of that overturn all the past bubblegum we gun owners comnpromised on and thought we'd be left alone.

 

[ilikegunspdx]

SO WHAT ???? point it is they're banning parts !!! so you're logic is that unless its in a package but what if some parts are not available outside of a package..... regardless this is crazy and I'm so tired of people defending anything regarding anti-gunners...... When will people undertand that there is no comnpromise from them..... SO NO COMPROMISE FROM US, and on top of that overturn all the past bubblegum we gun owners comnpromised on and thought we'd be left alone.

I hope you don't think I'm defending anti-gunners or any part of this illegal law. That is completely wrong if that is what you are saying.

 

[bradsteen]

The issue is less about whether you will be legally able to buy a given part or accessory and more about whether local FFLs and major online retailers will be willing to risk the wrath of the Attorney General's office by continuing to sell those parts to WA residents. Of course you could make arguments for many of the parts in question regarding commonality with lawful platforms. We know that and they know that. They're trying to make it so big a pain in the hindquarters to sell any gun parts to WA residents that companies will just not bother trying. THAT is the issue, and THAT is why he's saying stock up now. Because it may be really hard to find companies willing to sell us this stuff after it passes. Maybe he's wrong - I certainly hope so. But hope isn't a plan.

 

[fmvolume86]

The issue is less about whether you will be legally able to buy a given part or accessory and more about whether local FFLs and major online retailers will be willing to risk the wrath of the Attorney General's office by continuing to sell those parts to WA residents. Of course you could make arguments for many of the parts in question regarding commonality with lawful platforms. We know that and they know that. They're trying to make it so big a pain in the hindquarters to sell any gun parts to WA residents that companies will just not bother trying. THAT is the issue, and THAT is why he's saying stock up now. Because it may be really hard to find companies willing to sell us this stuff after it passes. Maybe he's wrong - I certainly hope so. But hope isn't a plan.

This is the other issue, gun stores and retail stores online bowing down to an law that is not legal to begin with. I find it absurd that they have to follow an unjust and illegal law they create that goes against the constituiotn, if they don't like it then they should go sue or take someoen to court and then what ??? what exactly have they done wrong??? They're federally legal, hence Federal Firearms License...... state rule/law doesn't trump a Federal law and the constitution. Ask if a state decided tomorrow to vote or bring back slavery would the same be happening ???

 

[44Brent]

1) There different kinds of ways of learning. One way is to learn by watching what happens in other states like Illinois and Oregon when similar laws were passed.

2) Another way is to listen to attorneys who have a strong subject matter expertise in explaining how to comply with laws, and how to challenge them in court.

A prudent learner would conclude there is a high risk that there won't be ANY firearms dealers doing business in Washington State in the next few months, and that companies like Brownells won't be shipping ANY parts to Washington State until permanent injunctions are issued. Business owners don't care what customers think about how to interpret a law. They DO care when their insurers cancel their coverage because the insurers decide that risk of defending avalanches of lawsuits from the state makes gun dealers too risky to backstop.

3) Another way of learning is to tell yourself stories rationalizing why things aren't as bad as they seem. This is followed by learning the hard way through experience. If you are in this category, I think it is likely you will be cussing out some customer service agent at Brownells for refusing to ship some item to you. You will be writing complaints like "I tried to buy this part from Brownells and they refused to ship it to me when I told them I'm in Washington. Those idiots think that such an item is illegal in Washington, and they are dummies for not understanding the law. I think we should boycott them". Good luck with that. You won't be boycotting them, they will be boycotting you because you are a risk to them.

 

[fmvolume86]

1) There different kinds of ways of learning. One way is to learn by watching what happens in other states like Illinois and Oregon when similar laws were passed.

2) Another way is to listen to attorneys who have a strong subject matter expertise in explaining how to comply with laws, and how to challenge them in court.

A prudent learner would conclude there is a high risk that there won't be ANY firearms dealers doing business in Washington State in the next few months, and that companies like Brownells won't be shipping ANY parts to Washington State until permanent injunctions are issued. Business owners don't care what customers think about how to interpret a law. They DO care when their insurers cancel their coverage because the insurers decide that risk of defending avalanches of lawsuits from the state makes gun dealers too risky to backstop.

3) Another way of learning is to tell yourself stories rationalizing why things aren't as bad as they seem. This is followed by learning the hard way through experience. If you are in this category, I think it is likely you will be cussing out some customer service agent at Brownells for refusing to ship some item to you. You will be writing complaints like "I tried to buy this part from Brownells and they refused to ship it to me when I told them I'm in Washington. Those idiots think that such an item is illegal in Washington, and they are dummies for not understanding the law. I think we should boycott them". Good luck with that. You won't be boycotting them, they will be boycotting you because you are a risk to them.

When things get back to normal, I chose to not buy from the online shops that didn't support us.... they have a choice, we have a choice. Midway has lost my business for not sending oregon magazines when it hadn't even made law yet or after a stay was put in place.

 

[User 1234]

Unfortunately, the above is accurate. Saying "I won't comply" doesn't mean much when every parts supplier refuses to ship to you. It isn't up to you.

 

[fmvolume86]

Unfortunately, the above is accurate. Saying "I won't comply" doesn't mean much when every parts supplier refuses to ship to you. It isn't up to you.

Lol yeah because you can only get parts from a supplier HAHA.... as if we can't get parts from other states and friends or drive over ???? you do you, some of us like I said when things go back to normal, will remember who supported us and who didn't. I vote with my money. Brownells can choose to do what they want. I understand local FFLs too small to fight, but when those big giants who love to take my money won't step up for us in these times, we'll remember.

 

[Knobgoblin]

The larger a company gets, the less likely it is to take any risk.

 

[fmvolume86]

The larger a company gets, the less likely it is to take any risk.

and that's their choice, but a company who isn't even in Washington i don't see how they have to abide by a state law that really has zero merit since firearms are a federal matter not a state matter. This is the presedence the gun industry set from the beginning, states have no say on the 2nd ammendment , they never really did...... its WE THE IDIOTS and the gun industry that continued to compromise with them inch by inch. Is the state going to search everyone's mail too ???? sounds like another federal crime

 

[bradsteen]

This is the other issue, gun stores and retail stores online bowing down to an law that is not legal to begin with. I find it absurd that they have to follow an unjust and illegal law they create that goes against the constituiotn, if they don't like it then they should go sue or take someoen to court and then what ??? what exactly have they done wrong??? They're federally legal, hence Federal Firearms License...... state rule/law doesn't trump a Federal law and the constitution. Ask if a state decided tomorrow to vote or bring back slavery would the same be happening ???

Local FFLs tend to run on tight margins already - there isn't a lot of markup in guns normally, and they have to compete with online retailers. Not many can afford to fight city hall, or the state government. Lawsuits cost a lot of money, and they're up against an opponent that has a virtually limitless cache of taxpayer dollars they can pull from.

Federal Way Discount Guns made a real ballsy move standing up the way they did, and they're suffering from it. Their lawsuit is undoubtedly nearing the $100k mark, if it hasn't exceeded it already. Yes they're getting some help from donations, but I doubt everything is being covered.

A small business owner doesn't just have their own interests to think about. They have employees with families and bills that need to be payed, and they have a ton of overhead costs - namely their rent for the retail space, inventory costs, insurance, utilities, etc. Giving the state the finger and selling stuff anyway can also hurt their reputation - those who are less informed will see the media and government officials portray them as criminals. Then there's the psychological impact of having your name, your brand, and everything you worked so hard to build getting dragged through the mud.

And at the end if the state loses, they are supposed to pay out your legal expenses. But they may simply choose not to out of spite. If that happens you have to sue them AGAIN to force them to pay out. That latter bit is a really $hitty move, but I have personally seen it pulled before on people I know.

Long story short, it takes a huge amount of courage and a willingness to bear massive financial and personal burdens to pick up that gauntlet and fight, and most FFLs simply can't afford to do it.

 

[Knobgoblin]

@fmvolume86 , this is what a society looks like when it chooses lawyers as it's ruling class.

 

[44Brent]

and that's their choice, but a company who isn't even in Washington i don't see how they have to abide by a state law that really has zero merit since firearms are a federal matter not a state matter. This is the presedence the gun industry set from the beginning, states have no say on the 2nd ammendment , they never really did...... its WE THE IDIOTS and the gun industry that continued to compromise with them inch by inch. Is the state going to search everyone's mail too ???? sounds like another federal crime

So, you don't think the Washington AG is capable of filing a lawsuit against a company that resides across a state boundary? Have you heard of STATE courts? This is a STATE law which is enforceable in Washington STATE courts.

I purchased some goods from a company in Oregon a few years ago and was surprised to find that they billed me the Washington State sales tax. I called to find out why they billed me the tax and learned that Washington State was threatening to sue them if they refused to collect the tax. I also was told that if I drove down to Oregon and picked up the goods in PERSON, that I would not have to pay the tax. But, Washington State was collecting information from other sources on their business relationships with customers in Oregon, so the business decided to collect the tax. That's an example of companies buckling over when they could have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to fight.

You must not have listened to the part of the videos that discussed what's happening in the insurance industry. Insurers are already notifying gun dealers in WA that they are going to cancel their policies if the FFL liability bill gets signed into law.

The "AWB" bans almost everything that is currently being sold.
The FFL liability bill will cause gun dealers to lose their insurance policies.

And you are upset that a lawyer warned you it is a good time to stock up on things you might need? You aren't even in Washington and his message wasn't addressed to you!

 

[micdude]

Local FFLs tend to run on tight margins already - there isn't a lot of markup in guns normally, and they have to compete with online retailers. Not many can afford to fight city hall, or the state government. Lawsuits cost a lot of money, and they're up against an opponent that has a virtually limitless cache of taxpayer dollars they can pull from.

Federal Way Discount Guns made a real ballsy move standing up the way they did, and they're suffering from it. Their lawsuit is undoubtedly nearing the $100k mark, if it hasn't exceeded it already. Yes they're getting some help from donations, but I doubt everything is being covered.

A small business owner doesn't just have their own interests to think about. They have employees with families and bills that need to be payed, and they have a ton of overhead costs - namely their rent for the retail space, inventory costs, insurance, utilities, etc. Giving the state the finger and selling stuff anyway can also hurt their reputation - those who are less informed will see the media and government officials portray them as criminals. Then there's the psychological impact of having your name, your brand, and everything you worked so hard to build getting dragged through the mud.

And at the end if the state loses, they are supposed to pay out your legal expenses. But they may simply choose not to out of spite. If that happens you have to sue them AGAIN to force them to pay out. That latter bit is a really $hitty move, but I have personally seen it pulled before on people I know.

Long story short, it takes a huge amount of courage and a willingness to bear massive financial and personal burdens to pick up that gauntlet and fight, and most FFLs simply can't afford to do it.

They don't have to win just get sued a few times and that's it.

 

[User 1234]

Lol yeah because you can only get parts from a supplier HAHA.... as if we can't get parts from other states and friends or drive over ???? you do you, some of us like I said when things go back to normal, will remember who supported us and who didn't. I vote with my money. Brownells can choose to do what they want. I understand local FFLs too small to fight, but when those big giants who love to take my money won't step up for us in these times, we'll remember.

Not everyone lives within a short drive of some other state.

 

[micdude]

Not everyone lives within a short drive of some other state.

Even if you're in the middle of the state it's a 3 hour drive

 

[Jay Walk]

Or order some parts right now.