MAC made news in Hungary

[03A3Sporter]

Seems like a lot of people cry about other people's business these days.

Yep

 

[L84Cabo]

FYI...Copper Custom (Tim from MAC has part ownership) has posted a pretty lengthy explanation of all of this to their FB page. I have no dog in this fight. I'm merely posting the info here for those that are interested and because it makes sense to see what the actual parties involved have to say.

Copper Custom Armament | Valparaiso IN

Copper Custom Armament, Valparaiso, Indiana. 23,863 likes · 2 talking about this · 571 were here. Purveyors of premium firearms and accessories for the discerning collector. Please visit us on the w

www.facebook.com

We know there is a lot of angry and upset customers regarding our rollout of the FEG HD-18 rifles. We know there is a lot of stories and conflicting information that has been circulating in forums and on social media about how these rifles came to be available here in the US. We want to let people know our backstory on this project and how it differs from the online narrative being told.

First, about our relationship with Trident LLC. Trident LLC is an importer that we have been working with for several years now and have used to import many desired and rare firearms. We continue to have a good relationship with Trident LLC and have many current import projects in the works. A few years ago, we requested Trident to keep an eye out globally for possibilities for AK rifle production or part kit sourcing. In this search, Trident contacted FEG to inquire on whether they had anything to offer in this realm. At this time, FEG was restructuring and did not have anything immediately available but presented us with options for future projects using the existing parts they had in their inventory while they tooled up for new production. One of these projects was the HD-18 rifle which we were interested in. FEG stated they had up to 100 rifles worth of parts that could be built but hoped to start new parts production for consistent import but could not give an exact time or date for this to happen.

Trident immediately started the process to gain ATF import approval and we began discussions with FEG on pricing and what their goals were for the US market. Initial pricing from FEG on rifles was higher than expected (would hit the market at $8000 MSRP). We advised them that this pricing was acceptable as a limited 100 gun import but would not be a sustainable price for constant import at which we suggested they needed to retail around $3500. Pricing discussions continued even after ATF approval was received as we didn't know if we were prepping the market for a one-off limited import or consistent import availability. Finally, Trident and Copper Custom agreed to buy the original 100 guns after negotiating to a slightly lower price, which would allow for a $7500 MSRP, as the fear of import shutdown by the new administration as well as still not having any confirmed timeframe or reduced pricing for new production imports was a concern.

This is how these 49 guns came to be here in the US and in our possession. The remaining 50 have yet to leave FEG. The narrative online is that we swooped in and stole these from some other entity, either stealing the import away or Copper Custom swooping in and buying all the inventory up from Trident to inflate the market. None of this is true. Trident LLC handled the importation from the start including financing the purchase of the rifles and the long and difficult process of submitting a sample to the ATF for approval. We were the retailer of these guns from the beginning of discussions about the project from FEG. We hope as much as anybody that new part mass production of these rifles comes to fruition and with that a price that is palatable to a larger portion of the public. We will do our best to keep the public informed of any progress in this direction.

Now to address what we know and what we did know about the forum posts made by the person with the username PRDUBI. Early on in initial conversations with FEG a list was mentioned that was a gauge of interest in these rifles. The list was a sales tool they presented to confirm there was market justification to pursue the project and importation. We all know that any SVD variant has huge demand here in the US and we assured them of that fact. They mentioned it in passing and it never was brought up or discussed further. There was never any mention of a group buy, buyers list, or any obligation attachment to it whatsoever. Again, this was a quick mention well over 1.5 years ago and never brought up or discussed again by anyone.
Also, PRDUBI did not assist Trident in any capacity with the import of these rifles and had no contact with Trident during this process. It was brought to our attention just before rifles were due to arrive by a member of the forum that found out we were to be the retailer that PRDUBI and the members of this forum were still expecting priority on these guns as well as pricing that was told to them by PRDUBI that had no basis in reality and was not sanctioned, approved or supported by FEG. Moreover, PRDUBI never attempted to contact us as the retailer to make us aware of this situation or even request that we try to accommodate the members of this forum in any way. There has never been any relationship between Copper Custom and PRDUBI of any kind.

Let me be clear, there was no attempt whatsoever, to this point, to contact or inform us of the expectations of this forum, prices that were put forth, or purchasing promises that were made to the forum. As of the time of this post, Copper Custom has still had no direct contact, or attempted contact, from PRDUBI.
Knowing more information at the last minute as these rifles were arriving at Copper Custom, we had to try to decide how to roll these out with as little backlash as possible. We had decided the best way to go about it is to start five initial Gunbroker listings starting at $5000 well under MSRP and a loss price to Copper Custom with the knowledge and anticipation that they would probably go at close to MSRP. We were planning on evaluating sales methods after the completion of these auctions to either pivot to MSRP pricing or lower if the market value was proven lower by the auctions.
The original website listing said all 100 guns would be listed on Gunbroker which was a miscommunication on my part to the web team and was never the intention for the sales of the entire quantity of guns.

Posting 5 guns to GunBroker was a grave mistake and, in our attempt to be as fair as possible, had the appearance of trying to take advantage of buyers and for this we apologize. It is never our intention to take advantage of customers or to price gouge.

We have been attempting to work with Gunbroker to end the auctions due to the fake bids, but Gunbroker continues to remove the fake bids but maintain the auctions. We cannot cancel the auctions, but they are essentially null and void and we will continue to work to have them removed.

Our reputation before this incident speaks for itself and we ask you to give us the benefit of the doubt that we did not have malicious intent with the pricing or availability of these rifles. Also, still to this date we have never been sent a list whatsoever. We are unsure if a formal list exists with usable contact info for buyers to even facilitate sales. We would happily try to work with accommodating this list with future imports if it could be provided with the necessary means of contact but so far, we have nothing to work with.

Tim's (Military Arms Channel) involvement with Copper Custom, albeit he has ownership stake, is involved in the media side and is not directly involved in many of the discussions and details behind these import projects and is briefed at a high level only. He had no knowledge of anything regarding the forum or lists until after the guns were already at Copper Custom and only had the knowledge that FEG had said that none of that was sanctioned or supported by them at the time the video was filmed on the rifle. Also, over the last 72 hours, as we have been dealing with the backlash, Tim has been trying to catch up on the details of the deal as well as the retail rollout at the shop but has taken a brunt of the hate from the public. This personal backlash is undeserved and unwarranted. He is receiving 90% of the negative impact of this with no major direct role in the process and minimal knowledge of the specific details of the project. The botched sales rollout falls on my shoulders as the owner that oversees the import projects and day to day shop processes and for this, I take full responsibility and apologize for the poorly planned and executed release.

This false information and fraudulent narrative have caused harassment, threats, and sabotages in the form of online threats, fraudulent reviews, trolling phone calls and even videotaped in store confrontations have been constant since Monday morning. Our staff has done a great job at handling this with as much grace and tact as possible considering how they have been treated. They bare no responsibility for any of this situation and we urge everyone to treat them respectfully. We have worked extremely hard over the last seven years to build this company's reputation as one of the best and most respected outlets for firearm retail and customer service. Military Arms Channel has also been one of the staunchest 2A voices in the community for over a decade and many times leading the charge online against all things anti 2A. We would ask everyone who has accepted these as truth to reevaluate the entire situation. We are happy to accept responsibility on our failures in this situation and hope others involved will be brave enough to do the same. We understand everyone's anger regarding this situation but hope to fight to earn back your support along with righting any wrongs that we can along the way.

We understand everyone has waited a long time for a statement from any party involved. The process of communication with FEG has been slow due to time differences as well as information having to work its way through the chain of companies due to Copper Custom not having any direct contract with FEG. FEG has been promising a statement from their agent but we have yet to see it posted publicly anywhere to our knowledge. We hope that the content of this statement will reflect the facts of what happened and assist us in disproving much of the misinformation currently online. We believe FEG to be a great firearms manufacturer as the HD-18 is truly of exceptional quality. We cannot wait to see what else that they produce and make available to the US market.

David Blythe
Copper Custom Armament
Owner

 

[03A3Sporter]

That's what I was wondering too, has he posted a rebuttal video yet? I would think that's coming if not out already.

I do not know why people think he needs to explain himself, yeah hes an internet celeb of sorts , but how he chooses to dispose of his property is between him and the buyer.

no one else should care.

 

[trevi]

A repost from akfiles.

Magyar mesterlövész-fegyverek miatt robbant ki országos botrány Amerikában

Egy amerikai Youtuber 100 darab magyar származású HD-18-as mesterlövész-fegyvert szerzett be fű alatt, majd aranyáron kezdte el Åket árulni, amiért országos botrány robbant ki az Egyesült Ãllamok fegyverrajongóinak körében.

www.portfolio.hu

Translation:
View attachment 845037
March 17, 2021 09:54 A national scandal erupted in America over Hungarian sniper rifles



An American Youtuber acquired 100 HD-18 sniper guns of Hungarian origin under grass and then began selling them at a gold price, for which a nationwide scandal erupted among U.S. gun enthusiasts.
In the United States, an average citizen gets 1.25 small arms, which means he has a huge culture of possessing firearms for collecting purposes in addition to self-defense and hunting.

Originally made Soviet-made sniper rifles of the SzVD (Snajskerskaya Vintovka Dragunova - Dragunov sniper rifle) model are a real rarity, as neither China nor Russia can import weapons into America due to the embargo. And American companies that make Kalashnikov copies do not produce SZVDs.
View attachment 845038

Russian snipers with two locally made SzVD variants. Photo by Dmitry Rogulin \ TASS via Getty

Hungary, on the other hand, is a NATO member and an American ally, and the Armed Forces still uses SZVD derivatives marked with the Hungarian FEG (sources differ as to whether these were weapons manufactured in Hungary or only Soviet-made SZVDs were retrofitted). , in any case they are mostly labeled Made in Hungary).

Hope recently sparked hopes among U.S. Dragunov fans when FEG Defense announced it would embark on U.S. exports of stock-based SZVD derivatives under the HD-18 brand. The sale price was shot at around $ 3,800-5,000 (HUF 1.17-1.54 million), which is especially expensive, but many collectors would have been willing to pay that price for the weapons.

A few days later, it turned out that the entire "package" was probably bought at a reduced price by an American "guntuber," Tim Harmsen, who runs a Youtube channel called the Military Arms Channel.

At first, many hoped that Tim Harmsen, who had repeatedly criticized the overpricing of American collectible weapons, would pass on the Dragunovs at a friendly price. It didn't happen so much that Harmsen put the guns on an auction site called Gunbroker, but only five out of a hundred and gave a starting bid of $ 5,000, which is the top of the price range set by FEG. So Harmsen was probably prepared to sell the weapons in smaller "packages" to keep the price of the Dragunovs as high as possible by abusing his essential monopoly. The whole thing was ironic just because the "guntuber" in several of his videos criticized those who behave similarly with other weapons.



U.S. gun owners stumbled upon Harmsen amazingly: they also smashed the auction site, where the price of guns had already been pushed up to $ 10 million (obviously no one will pay that bid, but it will make it impossible for serious inquirers). Gun fan sites were flooded with memes and posts critical of guntuber, ratings of his Youtube channel and videos were pulled down and filled with hateful comments.
View attachment 845039

Source: Gunbroker

So Harmsen couldn't sell the Dragunovs and ruined his otherwise reputable gun shop and reputation on his Youtube channel with the move. The gun community hopes that the guntuber will apologize and pass on the weapons rarities of Hungarian origin at an affordable, fixed price, which will be closer to the bottom of the price band set by FÉG Defense.

Anyway, I don't know how much Harmsen paid for the guns.

The cover image shows a Russian SZVD in the hands of a Russian sniper. Photo by Dmitry Rogulin \ TASS via Getty Images

All of his auctions of said rifle are now over 1 million dollars. Most likely going to be non-paying bidders. Interesting!!

 

[Savage Jav]

I do not know why people think he needs to explain himself, yeah hes an internet celeb of sorts , but how he chooses to dispose of his property is between him and the buyer.

no one else should care.

How is that different then the inital list of buyers and FEG. It was no one elses buisness. The only thing they did wrong was have a handshake agreement and not in writing

 

[03A3Sporter]

How is that different then the inital list of buyers and FEG. It was no one elses buisness. The only thing they did wrong was have a handshake agreement and not in writing

money talks and bull bubblegume walks ..

 

[Savage Jav]

money talks and bull bubblegume walks ..

Money cant buy you everything. Reputation and how you treat ppl last forever, money falls to inflation in time.

 

[03A3Sporter]

Money cant buy you everything. Reputation and how you treat ppl last forever, money falls to inflation in time.

What this boils down to is whose story you believe... I have no emotional investment in either side , but I have worked overseas and dealt with importers who were bringing us equipment from the states while we worked in Asia and Africa. Not much of anything got done with just a hand shake till I was dealing with a truck driver local to me to get things moved to their final location from a port. Get it in writing and money talks that is how business gets done when you aren't talking about folding money.

 

[trevi]

All of his auctions of said rifle are now over 1 million dollars. Most likely going to be non-paying bidders. Interesting!!

hungarian/ feg For Sale – Buy hungarian/ feg at GunBroker.com

Buy hungarian/ feg online at GunBroker.com, the world's largest gun auction site. GunBroker.com has hungarian/ feg for sale from thousands of trusted sellers.

www.gunbroker.com

 

[User 1234]

I believe that ethics matter, even in the hallowed halls of capitalism. The fact that someone might very well hold legal title to property and the right to sell it or hold it should not exonerate them as immune from criticism. Taking advantage of others is an example.

Last week we had a member ready to enter assisted living and posted his Remington pump rifle for sale for $100. Another member rightfully responded that whoever buys that rifle should pay the seller $200 or $300. Not because of any legal obligation but because paying such a drastically low price for something that the seller, who might not know the value of, has the right to sell for $100 would be of questionable ethics. Nobody was alleging that anyone was just too dumb to understand economics, and nobody was saying that "there ought to be a law" or government intervention. For those of you who believe in Jesus, did He ever say that it's ok to ignore His teachings as long as you were making a buck in your business by doing so?
At this point I don't think anyone knows what really happened with those rifles. I remember the list first being compiled and the organizer's initial efforts. I noticed some very narrowly-worded denials and lawyer language in MAC's new posting. Hopefully the organizer learns how to avoid this the next time around. If the circumstances are as the current reports say, then hopefully MAC contacts the organizer next time instead of harvesting the fruits of that person's labor or appearing to do so. Work collaboratively, or compete openly with separate projects.
Maybe it is a reaction to the insane push for the dumpster fire of socialism but the idea that business practices are immune from criticism and ethics has become very popular in many forums these days.

 

[po18guy]

The thing is, he made a whole video about doing the same thing he's accused of doing, dismissed "the list" people, AND dissed my BRO! If he was a no name gun shop that just happen to swoop them up its one thing, but he's a public figure with his fingers in all the pots and was FULLY aware of all the bad moves he made.

The only thing missing is his announcement that he is running for the US Senate.

 

[po18guy]

Forbidden fruit. Since the end of WWII, we saw Soviet weapons. A few were brought back home. Could not have them. They were attractive solely for that reason.

Wanted an SVT40, but they jumped up too high. Even more an AVT40, but those are hen's teeth and in the Hungarian rifle pricing range.

 

[No_Regerts]

I understand their statement, but it begs a question. If the intention was never to have the bids go through the roof, why not include a "buy now" option?

 

[Boboclown]

The only thing missing is his announcement that he is running for the US Senate.

With the way he managed to make news overseas, might as well run for president, skip the senate.

 

[TTSX]

I understand their statement, but it begs a question. If the intention was never to have the bids go through the roof, why not include a "buy now" option?

Doesn't the buy now feature become moot if the highest bid is over that level? I don't think I've seen it happen but....

 

[User 1234]

If, as MAC's new statement says, they were the ones who initiated the FEG production of these rifles, why no surprise and shock that the organizer was posting on AK Files that he was doing the same thing and starting a list? In all of MAC's postings through the years no mention of "gee, that's what we're working on too!" No duplicate production, only one batch? Sounds consistent with the organizer's version of events.

 

[03A3Sporter]

Doesn't the buy now feature become moot if the highest bid is over that level? I don't think I've seen it happen but....

Yes once the bid exceeds buy now the option goes away.

 

[Camelfilter]

Doesn't the buy now feature become moot if the highest bid is over that level? I don't think I've seen it happen but....

Maybe put a few out at auction to gauge sale price, then list more at a buy it now price?

 

[Caveman Jim]

Its funny you mention this. I was just thinking that I have all but stopped watching firearms related content on YouTube unless its an actual review of a product I am interested in. I have unsubscribed to everything because I have no desire to watch or be a fan of a "channel". I'd rather come here and talk to people I like vs listen to someone blather on and on about nothing and everything all at once.....(hehe)

Same here. Never followed any YT Channels, to me it's like those that adore hollyweird characters. Not Ole Caveman's cup of Joe.

 

[Savage Jav]

Maybe put a few out at auction to gauge sale price, then list more at a buy it now price?

The yankee marsh broke that down, apparently their is evidence that he intended to release a few at a time and keep raising the price every time.