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Thanks for bringing some honestly back into the discussion amidst the appeals to emotion.
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Thanks for bringing some honestly back into the discussion amidst the appeals to emotion.
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Well, technically its a joint effort involving Tim and others. So if we want honesty, its more than just stake. Everyone involved with them has lied and changed stories. Now I'm just done with people white knighting it and ignoring that people got screwed.
Member 34319
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You have every right to be mad, just be mad at the right person. Otherwise your only echoing the cancel that others before you started. If someone here shared this information from the thread you started, I hate to say it but you contributed to a cancel.
"Tim's (Military Arms Channel) involvement with Copper Custom, albeit he has ownership stake, is involved in the media side and is not directly involved in many of the discussions and details behind these import projects and is briefed at a high level only. He had no knowledge of anything regarding the forum or lists until after the guns were already at Copper Custom and only had the knowledge that FEG had said that none of that was sanctioned or supported by them at the time the video was filmed on the rifle. Also, over the last 72 hours, as we have been dealing with the backlash, Tim has been trying to catch up on the details of the deal as well as the retail rollout at the shop but has taken a brunt of the hate from the public. This personal backlash is undeserved and unwarranted. He is receiving 90% of the negative impact of this with no major direct role in the process and minimal knowledge of the specific details of the project. The botched sales rollout falls on my shoulders as the owner that oversees the import projects and day to day shop processes and for this, I take full responsibility and apologize for the poorly planned and executed release."
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- #104
Well, fine. I'm mad at copper customs and trident for screwing over everyone.
And annoyed with Tim for any of his involvement in the damage control. Can we agree with this assertion?
And annoyed with Tim for any of his involvement in the damage control. Can we agree with this assertion?
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Sure.
That's how cancel culture stuff works. It works off your anger. Most of the time, the entire details haven't even been established, yet everyone has reacted and shared the information as social media can outrun the truth. Once the truth gets out, it's already over and people have made their decision and moved on to the next thing.
The damage appears to already be done for Tim, and for you @Boboclown as you have already decided to cancel Tim it sounds? Even after the facts start to come to light...
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- #106
I saw the start and end, I'm on the forum where the list started. So I already knew all the info involved, and Tim could have apologized or outright said he wasn't involved instead of trying to damage control on media. People on the akfiles are angry about it and a good chunk of them were on said list and would buy it, and someone I know of on the discord was on the list and had cash ready to buy said rifle.
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Fair enough, a lot of "could of in there though.
You could have posted all of the information to add to the story so as to allow people to get a better understanding of what was happening.
Or was that not possible as most of the information didn't come out until after everyone canceled Tim and Copper Customs?
I wouldn't blame any person attached to a company to try and perform damage control. No one wants their company to fail. Especially due to cancel culture.
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the anti gunners want us all to turn on eachother...cancel eachother. the very thing theyve been doing to us for years. just now, they dont even have to; its happening from within. this is why gun owners always are on the losing end. what is it most people say? if you dont like the price dont buy it. what is it gun owners say? "why should we have to pay for the actions of one person? "WE as a group are under a microscope. if we start canceling eachofher out, anti gunners and the MSM will spin it like we all are crooks and dont even like eachother.
sure, the situation is shady. how does it directly affect me? it doesnt. im moving on with life.
sure, the situation is shady. how does it directly affect me? it doesnt. im moving on with life.
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I did, on the first page towards the bottom. The initial post was just about the part that Hungarian news focused on, take it up with them on that part.
The rest comes to light as it goes on because they constantly changed their side of the story.
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Yeah, well we've been screwing each other over so nothing new. They don't even need to be involved half the time.
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aint that the truth.
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The part I find absolutely hilarious about this whole issue is with all the drama, the youtubers lashing out at one another, the 'he said, she saids', the 'finger pointing' - and it's all over 100 rifles????
Lets see, people scrambling over large, ugainley looking rifles of questionable quality and performance, potentially no recourse or any kind of warranty, made under a one time 'contract' of sorts by some company named FEG and these people are willing to spend 5K+ plus on them?
I mean what is the 'addiction' to a glorified AK that is drawing people in with an almost 'cult like' following? Is there some sort of magical, 'mystique' about this rifle?
Oh, and back to the hilarious side - it comes with a 'scope' of sorts that mounts on the side of the receiver with a mount that looks like it was made from metal out of my scrap bin. Apparently rails & rings haven't made it to their 'drawing board' yet.
Lets see, people scrambling over large, ugainley looking rifles of questionable quality and performance, potentially no recourse or any kind of warranty, made under a one time 'contract' of sorts by some company named FEG and these people are willing to spend 5K+ plus on them?
I mean what is the 'addiction' to a glorified AK that is drawing people in with an almost 'cult like' following? Is there some sort of magical, 'mystique' about this rifle?
Oh, and back to the hilarious side - it comes with a 'scope' of sorts that mounts on the side of the receiver with a mount that looks like it was made from metal out of my scrap bin. Apparently rails & rings haven't made it to their 'drawing board' yet.
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They are collectors items. Rarity, historic interest and novelty are the valuable factors.
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Ex-military factory as far as I know.
Was how the SVD scopes work and AK optics. Started with night vision, works like a QD mount. Take it off when not in use and put it in a pouch.
100 with people adding their name to the list to be contacted to purchase, I was there when the rep brought it up. Lot of those guys are not happy.
If this happened with the Sig 550s being brought in not too long ago I'd been angry about it too, especially cause I was going to buy one (and did).
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Who ?
...and they had a what for sale ?
...........
...and they had a what for sale ?
...........
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A person, they had a thing for sale.
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Yea I watched enough of the babies throwing their temper tantrums to get the gist of it.
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"We know there is a lot of angry and upset customers regarding our rollout of the FEG HD-18 rifles. We know there is a lot of stories and conflicting information that has been circulating in forums and on social media about how these rifles came to be available here in the US. We want to let people know our backstory on this project and how it differs from the online narrative being told.
First, about our relationship with Trident LLC. Trident LLC is an importer that we have been working with for several years now and have used to import many desired and rare firearms. We continue to have a good relationship with Trident LLC and have many current import projects in the works. A few years ago, we requested Trident to keep an eye out globally for possibilities for AK rifle production or part kit sourcing. In this search, Trident contacted FEG to inquire on whether they had anything to offer in this realm. At this time, FEG was restructuring and did not have anything immediately available but presented us with options for future projects using the existing parts they had in their inventory while they tooled up for new production. One of these projects was the HD-18 rifle which we were interested in. FEG stated they had up to 100 rifles worth of parts that could be built but hoped to start new parts production for consistent import but could not give an exact time or date for this to happen.
Trident immediately started the process to gain ATF import approval and we began discussions with FEG on pricing and what their goals were for the US market. Initial pricing from FEG on rifles was higher than expected (would hit the market at $8000 MSRP). We advised them that this pricing was acceptable as a limited 100 gun import but would not be a sustainable price for constant import at which we suggested they needed to retail around $3500. Pricing discussions continued even after ATF approval was received as we didn't know if we were prepping the market for a one-off limited import or consistent import availability. Finally, Trident and Copper Custom agreed to buy the original 100 guns after negotiating to a slightly lower price, which would allow for a $7500 MSRP, as the fear of import shutdown by the new administration as well as still not having any confirmed timeframe or reduced pricing for new production imports was a concern.
This is how these 49 guns came to be here in the US and in our possession. The remaining 50 have yet to leave FEG. The narrative online is that we swooped in and stole these from some other entity, either stealing the import away or Copper Custom swooping in and buying all the inventory up from Trident to inflate the market. None of this is true. Trident LLC handled the importation from the start including financing the purchase of the rifles and the long and difficult process of submitting a sample to the ATF for approval. We were the retailer of these guns from the beginning of discussions about the project from FEG. We hope as much as anybody that new part mass production of these rifles comes to fruition and with that a price that is palatable to a larger portion of the public. We will do our best to keep the public informed of any progress in this direction.
Now to address what we know and what we did know about the forum posts made by the person with the username PRDUBI. Early on in initial conversations with FEG a list was mentioned that was a gauge of interest in these rifles. The list was a sales tool they presented to confirm there was market justification to pursue the project and importation. We all know that any SVD variant has huge demand here in the US and we assured them of that fact. They mentioned it in passing and it never was brought up or discussed further. There was never any mention of a group buy, buyers list, or any obligation attachment to it whatsoever. Again, this was a quick mention well over 1.5 years ago and never brought up or discussed again by anyone.
Also, PRDUBI did not assist Trident in any capacity with the import of these rifles and had no contact with Trident during this process. It was brought to our attention just before rifles were due to arrive by a member of the forum that found out we were to be the retailer that PRDUBI and the members of this forum were still expecting priority on these guns as well as pricing that was told to them by PRDUBI that had no basis in reality and was not sanctioned, approved or supported by FEG. Moreover, PRDUBI never attempted to contact us as the retailer to make us aware of this situation or even request that we try to accommodate the members of this forum in any way. There has never been any relationship between Copper Custom and PRDUBI of any kind.
Let me be clear, there was no attempt whatsoever, to this point, to contact or inform us of the expectations of this forum, prices that were put forth, or purchasing promises that were made to the forum. As of the time of this post, Copper Custom has still had no direct contact, or attempted contact, from PRDUBI.
Knowing more information at the last minute as these rifles were arriving at Copper Custom, we had to try to decide how to roll these out with as little backlash as possible. We had decided the best way to go about it is to start five initial Gunbroker listings starting at $5000 well under MSRP and a loss price to Copper Custom with the knowledge and anticipation that they would probably go at close to MSRP. We were planning on evaluating sales methods after the completion of these auctions to either pivot to MSRP pricing or lower if the market value was proven lower by the auctions.
The original website listing said all 100 guns would be listed on Gunbroker which was a miscommunication on my part to the web team and was never the intention for the sales of the entire quantity of guns.
Posting 5 guns to GunBroker was a grave mistake and, in our attempt to be as fair as possible, had the appearance of trying to take advantage of buyers and for this we apologize. It is never our intention to take advantage of customers or to price gouge.
We have been attempting to work with Gunbroker to end the auctions due to the fake bids, but Gunbroker continues to remove the fake bids but maintain the auctions. We cannot cancel the auctions, but they are essentially null and void and we will continue to work to have them removed.
Our reputation before this incident speaks for itself and we ask you to give us the benefit of the doubt that we did not have malicious intent with the pricing or availability of these rifles. Also, still to this date we have never been sent a list whatsoever. We are unsure if a formal list exists with usable contact info for buyers to even facilitate sales. We would happily try to work with accommodating this list with future imports if it could be provided with the necessary means of contact but so far, we have nothing to work with.
Tim's (Military Arms Channel) involvement with Copper Custom, albeit he has ownership stake, is involved in the media side and is not directly involved in many of the discussions and details behind these import projects and is briefed at a high level only. He had no knowledge of anything regarding the forum or lists until after the guns were already at Copper Custom and only had the knowledge that FEG had said that none of that was sanctioned or supported by them at the time the video was filmed on the rifle. Also, over the last 72 hours, as we have been dealing with the backlash, Tim has been trying to catch up on the details of the deal as well as the retail rollout at the shop but has taken a brunt of the hate from the public. This personal backlash is undeserved and unwarranted. He is receiving 90% of the negative impact of this with no major direct role in the process and minimal knowledge of the specific details of the project. The botched sales rollout falls on my shoulders as the owner that oversees the import projects and day to day shop processes and for this, I take full responsibility and apologize for the poorly planned and executed release.
This false information and fraudulent narrative have caused harassment, threats, and sabotages in the form of online threats, fraudulent reviews, trolling phone calls and even videotaped in store confrontations have been constant since Monday morning. Our staff has done a great job at handling this with as much grace and tact as possible considering how they have been treated. They bare no responsibility for any of this situation and we urge everyone to treat them respectfully. We have worked extremely hard over the last seven years to build this company's reputation as one of the best and most respected outlets for firearm retail and customer service. Military Arms Channel has also been one of the staunchest 2A voices in the community for over a decade and many times leading the charge online against all things anti 2A. We would ask everyone who has accepted these as truth to reevaluate the entire situation. We are happy to accept responsibility on our failures in this situation and hope others involved will be brave enough to do the same. We understand everyone's anger regarding this situation but hope to fight to earn back your support along with righting any wrongs that we can along the way.
We understand everyone has waited a long time for a statement from any party involved. The process of communication with FEG has been slow due to time differences as well as information having to work its way through the chain of companies due to Copper Custom not having any direct contract with FEG. FEG has been promising a statement from their agent but we have yet to see it posted publicly anywhere to our knowledge. We hope that the content of this statement will reflect the facts of what happened and assist us in disproving much of the misinformation currently online. We believe FEG to be a great firearms manufacturer as the HD-18 is truly of exceptional quality. We cannot wait to see what else that they produce and make available to the US market.
David Blythe
Copper Custom Armament
Owner"
First, about our relationship with Trident LLC. Trident LLC is an importer that we have been working with for several years now and have used to import many desired and rare firearms. We continue to have a good relationship with Trident LLC and have many current import projects in the works. A few years ago, we requested Trident to keep an eye out globally for possibilities for AK rifle production or part kit sourcing. In this search, Trident contacted FEG to inquire on whether they had anything to offer in this realm. At this time, FEG was restructuring and did not have anything immediately available but presented us with options for future projects using the existing parts they had in their inventory while they tooled up for new production. One of these projects was the HD-18 rifle which we were interested in. FEG stated they had up to 100 rifles worth of parts that could be built but hoped to start new parts production for consistent import but could not give an exact time or date for this to happen.
Trident immediately started the process to gain ATF import approval and we began discussions with FEG on pricing and what their goals were for the US market. Initial pricing from FEG on rifles was higher than expected (would hit the market at $8000 MSRP). We advised them that this pricing was acceptable as a limited 100 gun import but would not be a sustainable price for constant import at which we suggested they needed to retail around $3500. Pricing discussions continued even after ATF approval was received as we didn't know if we were prepping the market for a one-off limited import or consistent import availability. Finally, Trident and Copper Custom agreed to buy the original 100 guns after negotiating to a slightly lower price, which would allow for a $7500 MSRP, as the fear of import shutdown by the new administration as well as still not having any confirmed timeframe or reduced pricing for new production imports was a concern.
This is how these 49 guns came to be here in the US and in our possession. The remaining 50 have yet to leave FEG. The narrative online is that we swooped in and stole these from some other entity, either stealing the import away or Copper Custom swooping in and buying all the inventory up from Trident to inflate the market. None of this is true. Trident LLC handled the importation from the start including financing the purchase of the rifles and the long and difficult process of submitting a sample to the ATF for approval. We were the retailer of these guns from the beginning of discussions about the project from FEG. We hope as much as anybody that new part mass production of these rifles comes to fruition and with that a price that is palatable to a larger portion of the public. We will do our best to keep the public informed of any progress in this direction.
Now to address what we know and what we did know about the forum posts made by the person with the username PRDUBI. Early on in initial conversations with FEG a list was mentioned that was a gauge of interest in these rifles. The list was a sales tool they presented to confirm there was market justification to pursue the project and importation. We all know that any SVD variant has huge demand here in the US and we assured them of that fact. They mentioned it in passing and it never was brought up or discussed further. There was never any mention of a group buy, buyers list, or any obligation attachment to it whatsoever. Again, this was a quick mention well over 1.5 years ago and never brought up or discussed again by anyone.
Also, PRDUBI did not assist Trident in any capacity with the import of these rifles and had no contact with Trident during this process. It was brought to our attention just before rifles were due to arrive by a member of the forum that found out we were to be the retailer that PRDUBI and the members of this forum were still expecting priority on these guns as well as pricing that was told to them by PRDUBI that had no basis in reality and was not sanctioned, approved or supported by FEG. Moreover, PRDUBI never attempted to contact us as the retailer to make us aware of this situation or even request that we try to accommodate the members of this forum in any way. There has never been any relationship between Copper Custom and PRDUBI of any kind.
Let me be clear, there was no attempt whatsoever, to this point, to contact or inform us of the expectations of this forum, prices that were put forth, or purchasing promises that were made to the forum. As of the time of this post, Copper Custom has still had no direct contact, or attempted contact, from PRDUBI.
Knowing more information at the last minute as these rifles were arriving at Copper Custom, we had to try to decide how to roll these out with as little backlash as possible. We had decided the best way to go about it is to start five initial Gunbroker listings starting at $5000 well under MSRP and a loss price to Copper Custom with the knowledge and anticipation that they would probably go at close to MSRP. We were planning on evaluating sales methods after the completion of these auctions to either pivot to MSRP pricing or lower if the market value was proven lower by the auctions.
The original website listing said all 100 guns would be listed on Gunbroker which was a miscommunication on my part to the web team and was never the intention for the sales of the entire quantity of guns.
Posting 5 guns to GunBroker was a grave mistake and, in our attempt to be as fair as possible, had the appearance of trying to take advantage of buyers and for this we apologize. It is never our intention to take advantage of customers or to price gouge.
We have been attempting to work with Gunbroker to end the auctions due to the fake bids, but Gunbroker continues to remove the fake bids but maintain the auctions. We cannot cancel the auctions, but they are essentially null and void and we will continue to work to have them removed.
Our reputation before this incident speaks for itself and we ask you to give us the benefit of the doubt that we did not have malicious intent with the pricing or availability of these rifles. Also, still to this date we have never been sent a list whatsoever. We are unsure if a formal list exists with usable contact info for buyers to even facilitate sales. We would happily try to work with accommodating this list with future imports if it could be provided with the necessary means of contact but so far, we have nothing to work with.
Tim's (Military Arms Channel) involvement with Copper Custom, albeit he has ownership stake, is involved in the media side and is not directly involved in many of the discussions and details behind these import projects and is briefed at a high level only. He had no knowledge of anything regarding the forum or lists until after the guns were already at Copper Custom and only had the knowledge that FEG had said that none of that was sanctioned or supported by them at the time the video was filmed on the rifle. Also, over the last 72 hours, as we have been dealing with the backlash, Tim has been trying to catch up on the details of the deal as well as the retail rollout at the shop but has taken a brunt of the hate from the public. This personal backlash is undeserved and unwarranted. He is receiving 90% of the negative impact of this with no major direct role in the process and minimal knowledge of the specific details of the project. The botched sales rollout falls on my shoulders as the owner that oversees the import projects and day to day shop processes and for this, I take full responsibility and apologize for the poorly planned and executed release.
This false information and fraudulent narrative have caused harassment, threats, and sabotages in the form of online threats, fraudulent reviews, trolling phone calls and even videotaped in store confrontations have been constant since Monday morning. Our staff has done a great job at handling this with as much grace and tact as possible considering how they have been treated. They bare no responsibility for any of this situation and we urge everyone to treat them respectfully. We have worked extremely hard over the last seven years to build this company's reputation as one of the best and most respected outlets for firearm retail and customer service. Military Arms Channel has also been one of the staunchest 2A voices in the community for over a decade and many times leading the charge online against all things anti 2A. We would ask everyone who has accepted these as truth to reevaluate the entire situation. We are happy to accept responsibility on our failures in this situation and hope others involved will be brave enough to do the same. We understand everyone's anger regarding this situation but hope to fight to earn back your support along with righting any wrongs that we can along the way.
We understand everyone has waited a long time for a statement from any party involved. The process of communication with FEG has been slow due to time differences as well as information having to work its way through the chain of companies due to Copper Custom not having any direct contract with FEG. FEG has been promising a statement from their agent but we have yet to see it posted publicly anywhere to our knowledge. We hope that the content of this statement will reflect the facts of what happened and assist us in disproving much of the misinformation currently online. We believe FEG to be a great firearms manufacturer as the HD-18 is truly of exceptional quality. We cannot wait to see what else that they produce and make available to the US market.
David Blythe
Copper Custom Armament
Owner"
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That he claimed the rep didn't contact him seems to contradict the statement that FEG said they will contact people on the list and provide the info.
Someone at copper needs to make up their mind.
Someone at copper needs to make up their mind.
Member 34319
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I haven't seen a statement from FEG. Or from the importer Trident. Do you have it?
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