If Greece Fails

[kenno]

The stock market has no effect on world events, neither is it an indicator of financial solvancy. The stock Market is like Las Vegas, PPL are betting on who will "Win" and they bet on who will "Lose". The market has lost all attachment to production of wealth through Manufacturing it is now like ancient Rome, who gets the Gov't bail-out and grants, who wins if the Suez Canal is closed. Wall Street is based on knowing who has power and who is more corrupt.
Europe is not the ultimate target and bankers (read Govt's who force thier banks into risky loans for political reasons) are not the ultimate villians
Control of the ME and partial control of the russian oil industry is the intermediate goal to plunge the west into economic and social chaos to include the US.
The New Caliphate controls nearly everything in the southern Med.except Israel and the US Navy, gee who is verbaly attacking Israel here in the US? The Media, Al Jazera, Carter, Hollywood, Shrillary, Moore, and,,,Obobo
Who is slashing funding for the US Military? The White House.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfeTQY-4QwI&

 

[knuckle Head]

The stock market has no effect on world events, neither is it an indicator of financial solvancy. The stock Market is like Las Vegas, PPL are betting on who will "Win" and they bet on who will "Lose". The market has lost all attachment to production of wealth through Manufacturing it is now like ancient Rome, who gets the Gov't bail-out and grants, who wins if the Suez Canal is closed. Wall Street is based on knowing who has power and who is more corrupt.
Europe is not the ultimate target and bankers (read Govt's who force thier banks into risky loans for political reasons) are not the ultimate villians
Control of the ME and partial control of the russian oil industry is the intermediate goal to plunge the west into economic and social chaos to include the US.
The New Caliphate controls nearly everything in the southern Med.except Israel and the US Navy, gee who is verbaly attacking Israel here in the US? The Media, Al Jazera, Carter, Hollywood, Shrillary, Moore, and,,,Obobo
Who is slashing funding for the US Military? The White House.

Real News: Crisis in Greece - YouTube

nation and its border
Lots of good points here, but if you think the slashed in DOD budget already mentioned, just wait see what they heve in mind for the FISCAL year 2013 which begin at at 00:00.01 am 1 Oct.

While China, Russia, Iran and other rogue countries and increasing their Defense budgets, DC has it all wrong the primary purpose of the federal government is the defense of the nation and its borders, not telling kids in NC that their lunch that their parents packed for them is not up to standard therefore they have to dish out money they do not have to pay for it, since when do we need idiots from DC telling parents what to feed their kids.

anyways back to the forum, I watched the video it is right on, people need to accept it, deal with and go on, and quit trying to milk the big T*t in the sky, because it is run dry

 

[kenno]

Just a bit of thread drift:
An entire French village complete with 19 buildings and a swimming pool is up for sale in France – for just £275,000.
The extraordinary price of Courbefy, in the unspoilt Limousin region in the centre of the country, is attributed to a failing economy and the break-up of rural communities.



<broken link removed>

 

[mjbskwim]

So they're selling before France get the austerity deal?
Or before WWIII?

 

[Burt Gummer]

Good article on Greece - 8 Reasons Why The Greek Debt Deal May Not Stop A Chaotic Greek Debt Default

 

[mjbskwim]

I listened to a guy last night that was saying it's just delaying the inevitable.

 

[A.I.P.]

Greek bond hits 752% in one day:
In what can only be called a determination of default by investors, the sell off of Greece's short term debt tells a tale of woe. The 1 year bond yield moved from yesterday's close of 652% to 752% overnight while the 2 year moved a whopping 20 bps from 192% to 212%. If this isn't the true vote on the alleged ECB/IMF "bailout" I do not know what is. This is a nation falling into disarray, default, and ultimately anarchy if they do not act to withdraw from the European Union and re-establish their own currency. The Icelandic solution may not be pretty, but there will be no private buyers for Greek debt after the CAC law are enacted.

 

[kenno]

S&P Cuts Greece Ratings To Selective Default From CC
By Tyler Durden of ZeroHedge


Translation: Greece better have that PSI in the bag or else the "Selective" goes away and "Greece would face an imminent outright payment default." Our question for former Goldmanite and current ECB head Mario Dragi: does the ECB allow defaulted bonds to be pledged as collateral within the Euro System?



From S&P

Greece Ratings Lowered To 'SD’ (Selective Default)
Rating Action

On Feb. 27, 2012, Standard & Poor's Ratings Services lowered its 'CC' long-term and 'C' short-term sovereign credit ratings on the Hellenic Republic (Greece) to 'SD' (selective default).


Our recovery rating of '4' on Greece's foreign-currency issue ratings is unchanged. Our country transfer and convertibility (T&C) assessment for Greece, as for all other eurozone members, remains 'AAA'.


Rationale


We lowered our sovereign credit ratings on Greece to 'SD' following the Greek government's retroactive insertion of collective action clauses (CACs) in the documentation of certain series of its sovereign debt on Feb. 23, 2012. The effect of a CAC is to bind all bondholders of a particular series to amended bond payment terms in the event that a predefined quorum of creditors has agreed to do so. In our opinion, Greece's retroactive insertion of CACs materially changes the original terms of the affected debt and constitutes the launch of what we consider to be a distressed debt restructuring. Under our criteria, either condition is grounds for us to lower our sovereign credit rating on Greece to 'SD' and our ratings on the affected debt issues to 'D'.


As we have previously stated, we may view an issuer's unilateral change of the original terms and conditions of an obligation as a de facto restructuring and thus a default by Standard & Poor's published definition (see "Retroactive Application Of Collective Action Clauses Would Constitute A Selective Default By Greece," Feb. 10, 2012, and "Rating Implications Of Exchange Offers And Similar Restructurings, Update," May 12, 2009). Under our criteria, the definition of restructuring includes exchange offers featuring the issuance of new debt with less-favorable terms than those of the original issue without what we view to be adequate offsetting compensation. Such less-favorable terms could include a reduced principal amount, extended maturities, a lower coupon, different payment currency, different legal characteristics that affect debt service, or effective subordination.


We do not generally view CACs (to the extent that they are included in an original issuance) as changing a government's incentive to pay its obligations in full and on time. However, we believe that the retroactive insertion of CACs will diminish bondholders' bargaining power in an upcoming debt exchange. Indeed, Greece launched such an exchange offer on Feb. 24, 2012.


If the exchange is consummated (which we understand is scheduled to occur on or about March 12, 2012), we will likely consider the selective default to be cured and raise the sovereign credit rating on Greece to the 'CCC' category, reflecting our forward-looking assessment of Greece's creditworthiness.In this context, any potential upgrade to the 'CCC' category rating would inter alia reflect our view of Greece's uncertain economic growth prospects and still large government debt, even after the debt restructuring is concluded.


If a sufficient number of bondholders do not accept the exchange offer, we believe that Greece would face an imminent outright payment default. This is because of its lack of access to market funding and the likely unavailability of additional official financing. The revised financial assistance program provided by most of the eurozone governments and the Stand-By Credit Arrangement with the International Monetary Fund are predicated on a successful exchange offer.


Our T&C assessment for Greece, as for all other eurozone members, is 'AAA'. A T&C assessment reflects our view of the likelihood of a sovereign restricting nonsovereign access to foreign exchange needed to satisfy the nonsovereign's debt-service obligations. Our T&C assessment for Greece expresses our view of the low likelihood of the European Central Bank restricting nonsovereign access to foreign currency needed for debt servicing.


If Greece were to withdraw from eurozone membership (which is not our base-case assumption) and introduce a new local currency, we would reevaluate our T&C assessment on Greece to reflect our view of the likelihood of the Greek sovereign and its central bank restricting nonsovereign access to foreign exchange needed for debt service. Contrary to the current case, in this scenario, the euro would be a foreign currency, and the Bank of Greece would no longer be part of the European System of Central Banks. As a result, under our criteria, the T&C assessment can be at most three notches above the foreign-currency sovereign credit rating.

 

[chemist]

Does the ECB allow defaulted bonds to be pledged as collateral within the Euro System?

Excellent - and why not? These financial geniuses have already "rehypothecated" their collateral many times over, meaning that the same assets can be pledged over and over again as collateral for debt leveraged to the Moon.

Just to be clear, an asset can only appear on one balance sheet: If you "own" it, I can't, by definition. But collateral is a different animal, and I can take an asset that you've pledged as collateral for a loan that I gave you, and then use that same asset to secure my own loan from somebody else. That "somebody else" could then in principle borrow from you, the original debtor, pledging your same asset back to you as collateral!

All the bankers are happy, and everybody else is well and truly screwed. And that, my friends, is leverage.

When TSHTF, 49 out of 50 paper promises against hard assets will be extinguished, and there will be a comprehensive default and a mass run on the financial system. The only remaining wealth will be things that you hold in your hands.

 

[erudne]

Moody's Downgrades Greece to Lowest Rating on Bond Scale
Posted on March 2, 2012 at 7:49pm by Tiffany Gabbay
The ratings agency Moody's downgraded Greece to the lowest rating on its bond scale late Friday, following a deal with private investors that would see them ultimately lose an estimated 70 percent of their holdings in Greek debt.
Moody&#8216;s lowered Greece's sovereign rating to C from Ca, arguing that the risk of default remains high even a bond-swap deal with banks and other private investors, due to be completed this month, is successful.(Related: Glenn Beck Presents Documentary: &#8216;Six Hours in Greece')

It said it would "re-assess the credit risk profile" after Greece issues the new bonds.

Ratings agency Standard & Poor's took similar action on Feb. 27.

The swap deal aims to cut euro107 billion ($144 billion) from the country's debt, and would see private investors lose more than half the face value of their Greek bonds in exchange for new ones issued with more favorable repayment terms for the crisis-hit country.

The exchange is an integral part of a second bailout package for Greece by other eurozone countries and the International Monetary Fund.
"Looking ahead, the EU program and proposed debt exchanges will reduce Greece's debt burden, but the risk of a default even after the debt exchange has been completed remains high," Moody's said.

"Moody's believes that Greece will still face medium-term solvency challenges: its stock of debt will still be well in excess of 100 percent of gross domestic product for many years, the country is unlikely to be able to access the private market once the second assistance package runs out, and its planned fiscal and economic reforms will still face very significant implementation
Guess who now owns Greece's debt, YOU DO

 

[knuckle Head]

Wow, it only forever to get to this point, but it seems like they are still trying to kick the can down the road, heres a link related to the article above World News: Greek crisis: Moody

<broken link removed>

 

[Burt Gummer]

I feel sorry for the people that are suffering due to the conditions in Greece but I care a lot more about the pending collapse here at home. It seems like a lot of people have criticism for the Greek people living beyond their means; it is their fault, etc.

Am I missing something? We are just as bad if not worse. The USA has the worst balance sheet on the planet. Maybe because the banker media says otherwise? - is that why people are not aware of this fact? Pride?

The United States has more government debt per capita than Greece, Portugal, Italy, Ireland or Spain. There are more unemployed Americans than there are people living in the entire nation of Greece.

Pity them yes, but look down our nose at them? That's pretty hypocritical and what goes around comes around.

The money printing and treasury looting must stop and interest rates must rise at some point.

Those two mistakes (in that they will make the crash much worse) are the only things propping up Bernie (Bernie Lowenstein, metaphor for our fake Ponzi economy).

 

[chemist]

Please be careful when describing Quantitative Easing as "money printing." To be sure, M3 has exploded, and all that easy money has propped up the stock market and triggered inflation in commodities. But the term "printing" is generally used to describe unbacked currency, like Weimar Germany or Zimbabwe. That will be the end-game to be sure, but right now we're still can-kicking in the conventional mode.

The first, last, and only official solution to our massive, unmanageable debt has been and still is to take on even more debt. Every dollar added to M3 has come with a promise to the Federal Reserve to pay it back - with interest. The Fed now holds Treasury notes - promissory notes - for most of the outstanding debt: the cash in circulation plus all credit. This private bank, the Federal Reserve, is owed more than the entire annual US GDP by the government - that's us. And those bankers mean to collect.

To me this is at least as scary as facing imminent hyperinflation of the dollar via printing, a la Zimbabwe. What we're facing right this moment is DEBT SLAVERY, where the most powerful players flatly refuse to accept anything short of 100% repayment of every note they hold. Like Greece, where the governments - that is, the people - are "loaning" the money to Greece, but none of it is going to Greeks - it's all going to repay debt held by privately owned banks in France, Italy, Spain,....

Nothing short of all-out revolution could trigger debt jubilee, and that would surely become messy in a hurry. Very, very messy.

 

[Burt Gummer]

The US dollar IS an unbacked, fiat currency. Back by nothing, period. Not backed by gold, or '10%', or ... anything. Yes, 'printed' in the trillions JUST LIKE Zimbabwe. No different. Quantitive Easing is nothing more or less than money printing. Giving something a catchy name changes nothing. That is pablum for the masses.

A cartel of Banksters promise to pay anyone is meaningless when their promise is not backed by anything real, just IOUs and NO legal recourse to do anything.

Printed/digitized out of thin air from a private non-government institution with no restraint or oversight. A dollar bill is no better than what Weimar had or Zimbabwe has; toilet paper that has valued ONLY based on people's perception of its value. It can literally evaporate via hyperinflation, which is a very real threat.

This is all the part of the overall plan though. Leave the peasants with nothing; the greatest transfer of real wealth ever.

Problem (dollar collapse), reaction (angry mobs), solution (a new FIAT currency at pennies on the dollar, a World Central Bank, even more empowerment for the banksters, etc). None of this crap is happening by random chance. Our mis-leaders are all bought and paid for and are out to look after the interests of the central banking families. Your needs, 'rights', etc are not even part of the equation.

All that can be done now is focus on your own life, prepare the best you can (get out of anything paper related) and try to live your life to the fullest with as much joy as possible. Each day you are living RIGHT NOW are the last of the good times. Don't waste them, and definitely give -0- faith to the sold-out politicians and the presstitutes in our fake media.

 

[chemist]

No, the US dollar (and every other fiat currency outside of Zimbabwe) is backed by a promise to repay the debt that brought it into existence. Creditors hold that debt, buy and sell that debt, and periodically collect on those debts plus interest. That's what differentiates fiat currency from yesterday's newspaper: somebody believes that the IOU is good.

When that faith and trust break down, nobody wants to buy the debt so the bond yields spike, and then the government has no choice but to keep adding zeroes to the notes it prints to keep up with the loss of faith. It'll happen eventually, but right now there's still tremendous market faith in the US dollar as a safe haven, as evinced by the historically low T-bill yields.

 

[ATCclears]

Noisycow and chemist, an interesting debate. I lean toward Noisycow's thinking. There is also a huge bubble of forthcoming spending for entitlement programs.
United States public debt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Peter

 

[knuckle Head]

Yeah I think, they both have good points and that is actually a combination of both their arguments

 

[chemist]

Hey, no being nice on the Internet!!
Them's the rules - you gotta represent for yo homies and blaze the rest.

 

[erudne]

We are watching a Huge transfer of wealth from the "haves" to the "have nots" but the "Money" seems to vanish into thin air.
The PPL behind the curtins are the ones who will end-up with posession of the money, wealth and populations it will be global servitude before the decade is out, or WAR. Maybe both

 

[knuckle Head]

We are watching a Huge transfer of wealth from the "haves" to the "have nots" but the "Money" seems to vanish into thin air.
The PPL behind the curtins are the ones who will end-up with posession of the money, wealth and populations it will be global servitude before the decade is out, or WAR. Maybe both

There are definitely funny things going on, Russia behind an Israeli attack of Iran Now, yep check it out, may that has something to do with us not questioning Putins questionable re-election (oh yeah they froze Irans bank accounts there, I wander where the funds are going to wind up) guess they got all the money they could out them buy building the plants for Iran and upgrading Tehrans air defenses last month, not is is time to test them at the expense of Irand and ultimately israel.

O bobo, is now behind Israel guess he needs the election votes, now he pretend to be on their side and then if he gets re-elected abanbon them and watch them fight it out while he continues to destroy our country.

Lots of things going on that do not make sense in a logical world unless someone or some group is pulling the strings for an undisclosed backroom deal