Help on when to draw your weapon

Discussion in 'Defensive Carry & Self Defense' started by 1371JarHead, Sep 13, 2018.

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  1. 1371JarHead

    1371JarHead
    Seattle
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    Good morning all, So I`ll give you a bit of background, I`m a 60yr old white male, former Marine and soon to retire from my contractor job in asscrapastan. I live in a nice apt building in Seattle, have lived here for the past 15 yrs, and have never had a issue with any of the tenets. On wed morn at around 11 am I was standing by the elevator to go down to get the mail( im old my back hurts and in a few weeks the VA will be replacing my knees). While im waiting a dog come teargassing at me, is barking jumping on me, not really super aggressive but still not in a friendly lets throw a ball around kind of way. I tell the dog to get the bubblegum down and make a motion with my hand to push him or her away, at the moment, some dude come up on me starts screaming vulgarities at me about leave my bubbleguming dog alone who the bubblegum are you to tell me about my dog, I calmly informed him that the lease states all dogs must be on a leash and have a muzzle on, i did not call him a bubblegum or bubblegum, i was trying to calm the whole thing down. He then walks right up to me(face to face close) starts screaming begging me to swing at him ( he is about 3 or4 inches taller and 50 pounds heaver then myself) also a lot younger i would say mid to late 30s or so.I put my left hand up and take a step back and told him to back off, he takes a step forward and again starts to scream at me, i take a step sideways trying to get out of there but he also steps sideways blocking my only way out. He then picks up his dog and starts to walk away, and i think its over, just another upset gay dude who hates everyone or everything. He take 5 or 6 steps puts the dog down and starting screaming something vile and he puts his hand up in a sort of semi mma boxing thing and proceeds to advance on me, at that point i take i step back put my left hand back up tell him to back off and put my hand on my EDC that i have in a OSWB holster, that is covered by my long shirt and my light rain jacket. However while i was trying to get at my pistol( FNS9C/17 ROUND MAG)(147 grain jacketed hollow point , spear gold dot +p ammo) my shirt got hung up on this little leaver safety catch that you need to release in order for the pistol to be able to be pulled from the holster( did that make sense). Just then the elevator door opened and the building manger stepped out asking what was going on i heard all this yelling, i said this guy is being super verbally abusive and aggressive towards me who is he does he live here, also almost at the same time i got my hand on the pistol grip and pressed the release lever on the holster. The screaming dude then stops and said do you have a gun are you pulling a gun on me oh my god help help call the police, he then runs away and leaves the elevator waiting area. I go down get my mail and after about 1 hour call the police to report a what the heck just happened. The police said sound like i did everything right and a few hours later they came out i gave a statement that's is it i guess. So after all that my question is this, I carry everywhere that is legal, but never with a round in the chamber, i guess because its Seattle etc etc etc, however if he had had a edged weapon or even if he had started punching me I would have had no time to pull my pistol chamber a round and acquire a good sight picture, before having my head kicked in. So any relevant help in carrying with a chambered round /when to draw your weapon would be a great help, im a pretty good shot we have to qual 4 times a year when we deploy to our jobs as well i love going to the range just to shoot....thanks cheers Robert
     
  2. v0lcom13sn0w

    v0lcom13sn0w
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    not so tough when sh!t got real. f that guy.

    sorry you had to go thru that.

    i carry chambered. ALWAYS. an elevator is a small space and who knows if you woulda had time to load your weapon. what if he woulda disabled your other arm?

    if i felt my life or family members life was in immediate danger of grave bodily harm is when i would pull my gun.
     
  3. ZigZagZeke

    ZigZagZeke
    Eugene
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    Sounds righteous to me. He was assaulting you (putting you in fear of imminent offensive touching) and you gave a measured response. That said, he could have called it in as you assaulting him, leaving out, of course, his own verbal and physical abuse. So it's a good thing you called it in, but I would not have waited an hour to do so. In a situation like this the police often treat the first caller as the victim. Lesson learned about carrying with an empty chamber. The lesson could have been much more expensive.
     
  4. titsonritz

    titsonritz
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    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
  5. Joe13

    Joe13
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    You sound fairly competent with a pistol so keeping it loaded should be within your comfort zone. Just know what you need to do to draw it, i.e. Keep your finger off the trigger.


    I keep all of my self defense guns loaded with the safety off. Never had a negligent discharge.



    As for when to draw, I'd probably have pulled it the time he blocked you a second time. In confined spaces, as you mentioned, you don't have seconds to spare - you have half seconds if your lucky.





    Now myself being 6'1" and 270 I'd have continued to try and de escalate further because I don't ever want someone to question if I was the aggressor.

    On the flip side, things like that just don't happen to me... maybe when I get older, but normally people avoided me unless they are in a Prius;):p
     
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  6. whitney

    whitney
    Poulsbo, Kitsap County
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    OP snipped for brevity. I think you did fine, to the meat of your question the decision to carry condition one is a personal one. I believe both parties received an inexpensive education. I travel the area of Third and James frequently for access to the light rail from the ferry. I NEVER carry other than condition one for the reasons you described. So......with your aforementioned background may I ask why you do not carry in condition one? Is it an issue of that's how you trained or is it more personal. If it is none of my business that is ok too.

    ~Whitney
     
  7. ron

    ron
    Vancouver, Washington
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    Round in the chamber defiantly.:oops: I hate seeing people mistreat a dog.
    That is exactly what he did. Pepper Spray is Kryptomite to dogs. Non
    lethal but I am not going to allow some Jack A$$ intimidate or harass me
    with his dog.:confused:I always carry pepper spray. After you spray the dog a jerk
    like that he would probably need some too.:eek: I am looking at a folding baton?
    I am not saying that lethal force may not justified BUT.:oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops::oops:
    If you shoot the pri$% it is a big pile of poo you just stepped in. :eek::eek::eek:
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
  8. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki
    Doin Patriot Stuff
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    Always condition 1! As others have pointed out, the time you need to draw and use it, you just don't have time for the additional steps. I would also look at your holster for a better system of retention with out the need for extra steps to get at your pistol!
    I highly recommend a hybrid leather and Kydex molded speciffically for your pistol and adjustable for tension! I carry a 1911 in condition ZERO ( like Joe13 says) , or 1 deep depending on the situ, and I can switch between with out having to draw! Not trying to sell any one on the 1911, but it's one of the best for this very reason!
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
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  9. Salty_Socks

    Salty_Socks
    Oregon
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    I think everyone missed the main point of this gentleman's story. When to draw your weapon. Im no judge nor am I a lawyer or expert of law. But if I was in the jury, which would be the ones making the decision, taking all the details into account, you being elderly with a few mobility disadvantages, him being a young, adult male with no mobility issues, you would have been justified in drawing and using your firearm.
     
  10. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki
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    I don't think there is a correct answer for exactly WHEN to draw, more like SHOULD, and that's also open to each individual and that persons circumstances!

    Beyond all that, I will say, Don't just put your hand on your gun or hip, or give any indication that your about to draw, or are even considering it, once you have made the decision that a draw is nessessory, then a lightning fast draw and presentation is whats called for! Don't ever broadcast you intention to draw, especially in close with an assailant, you run the risk of escalation by broadcasting your intent and the tango can get the drop on you!
     
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  11. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf
    SE Portland
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    OP has no right pinky and you.. no idea.

    lol
     
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  12. Joe13

    Joe13
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    It was a 2 question post and I addressed both questions in my reply...;).

    As to other posts - as has been said, it is very subjective as to when you draw as well as when you pull the trigger.
     
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  13. NWCustomFirearms

    NWCustomFirearms
    Gunsmith,Vancouver
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    You ARE pretty scary lol
     
  14. Jonnyuma

    Jonnyuma
    A Dirty Little Town in NW Oregon
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    There's such a thing as "disparity of force" in most state's SD laws. A big young guy against an old, little guy (not saying you're old and weak @1371JarHead, just a generic example), or several "unarmed" assailants against one armed person can be a case for legitimate self defense.
    The law is concrete, but proving wrongdoing when words like "reasonable" and "intent" are written-in leaves a lot of gray area to be exploited by a prosecutor.
    1) always have a round chambered.
    2) Rethink your holster choice
    3)Look into LTL (less than lethal) means of self defense. It's freaking stupid, but in OR I can conceal a handgun, but an expandable baton will get me arrested and charged.
    4) If you think (I intentionally didn't use the word "feel") that you are in danger of death or grievous bodily harm, then drawing your weapon is a legitimate escalation. Just be prepared to back it up in court if you have to.
    5) Don't pull unless you are willing to fire. Hopefully you won't have to, oftentimes (more often than can be recorded), that escalation de-escalates a situation without a shot. At that point it's the best you can hope for. Just don't use that hogleg as a prop... I'm sure you know that, but it's worth saying for the benefit of future lurkers.
    6) Always make a police report. If worse comes to worst and homeboy moves this "thing" to the next level the paper trail will establish a pattern of aggression on his part. That goes for any vandalism or harassment too, even if it can't necessarily be attributed to young MMA-dude
    7) Enjoy your retirement, Marine. Sounds like you deserve it.

    Semper Fi
    JY, 0351 3/7 MCAGCC 29 Palms
     
  15. AndyinEverson

    AndyinEverson
    Everson, Wa.
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    Short answer to a complex question...
    You need to draw your pistol when :
    You are threatened to a point where you have no other options , but to shoot....
    And where you have done everything you could have done to avoid having to shoot...
    Andy
     
  16. 41mag

    41mag
    sunny Orygun
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    a crucial point was the interference of the clothing with even making a draw regardless of what brand kryptonite was in it or not
     
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  17. Jonnyuma

    Jonnyuma
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    Not so sure about that, Andy.
    Although good advice, that reads like "Duty To Retreat" verbiage.
    Aren't WA and OR "Castle Doctrine" states?
    I realize Castle Doctrine is different from Stand Your Ground, but are they that different?

    Hmmmm... this seems like something I should dig into...
     
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  18. AndyinEverson

    AndyinEverson
    Everson, Wa.
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    My "good advice".. is just how I view carrying and when to draw or shoot...
    Granted I am not a lawyer...but...it may cover your azz if you end up in court...
    You can truly say that you were threatened for your life and you did everything you could to avoid having to shoot...

    This , to be sure , can look and be different for everyone...and as I said it is my outlook on when and how I carry...it may not be the same or even work for anyone else...
    Andy
     
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  19. Caveman Jim

    Caveman Jim
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    No one but you can decide when to draw, too many variables can come into play.

    Just remember that there is only ONE REASON to ever pull your weapon and it is not to scare off an assailant.
    I would suggest pepper spray at first, if it escalated further then lethal force would be warranted IMHO.
     
  20. Heyjoe

    Heyjoe
    Idaho
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    If escape is not an option and grave bodily harm is imminent, I'll draw. I'll not draw, though, without sending hot lead downrange.

    Your pistol is not a warning for bad guys, if it's real enough to draw, it's real enough to shoot is my rule.
     

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