Help on when to draw your weapon

[1371JarHead]

Jarhead, forgive the johnny-come lately but i have read your inital posting, everyone's as well as your responses and noticed a salient absence of anyone HIGHLY recommending getting some professional SD training.

1. You have a WA state permit which does not mandate live-fire exercises, so by your own admission you allowed the perb to get too close; you fumbled getting your defensive firearm drawn; if you had drawn on the perb that close, due to size differences pulling your firearm could have had it taken away form you and they could have been beating you with it - fortunately the perb couldn't shoot you cuz you didn't have one in the chamber.

Take NRA in/outside the home personal protection courses. NRA Training
If ya do not the nation's goldstandard training cadres, find an outside group to give you a knowledge/skill/attitude SD training course which includes drawing from holster live-fire. Outside PP you will expend approximately 300+ rounds, inside PP 200 rounds.

Next, verbal assault is normally not a deadly force justification nor is simple assualt of approaching you, size difference notwithstanding! You got bullied noting more!

Further, you waited an hour to notify LE, if the perb notified LE's first, you would have been playing judicial justification why you brandish a firearm in an elevator against a legitimate guest of a resident of the property.

Finally, one hopes the lesson you learned from your event is to stand quietly while the big dog is standing next to you urinating on your leg otherwise you could have gotten seriously injuried cuz you didn't have a clue and were totally unprepared.

Thanks man, all great points, and i have taken steps on all of your points, thanks

 

[EPS]

I think you got a free one that time,
I will assume that shirt getting caught thing will be made to never happen again

Yes he did I got a new holster for my 1911 last week and I won't use it to carry yet because it's too new .
I have to really pull to get the gun out .
Needs a little break in time I will wear it to the range and use it there till it gets broke in .
Until then kydex with the Glock.

 

[billdeserthills]

Yes he did I got a new holster for my 1911 last week and I won't use it to carry yet because it's too new .
I have to really pull to get the gun out .
Needs a little break in time I will wear it to the range and use it there till it gets broke in .
Until then kydex with the Glock.View attachment 500042 View attachment 500043

When I used to sell leather holsters I always liked to slick them up with this-
KG-9 Micro PTFE Leather Kote

 

[Lasers]

Good points. This thread was a good read.

Personal story.

I was downtown Portland a few weeks ago with the Mrs. and our 3 kids. Say you want about downtown and it's state of occupants, but we like to go down to Saturday market with the kids, and the variety of people it brings usually start good family talks.

Anyway, as we're walking towards waterfront at around noon, I noticed about 500 ft ahead of us, what appeared to me a man on some sort of drugs. I'm no expert, but the movements and gait he had, he was way UP. Meth?

Anyway, he's being very sporadic, yelling at some bystanders at a bus stop and generally being a nuisance.

I led my family across a nearby crosswalk to the other side of the street to avoid his antics, but to my dismay, as we approach the next crosswalk, he decides he's going to cross and approach us.

Now my wife knows, I'm carrying in condition 1 and keeps her head cool as she ushers our kids behind me and I face the guy as we wait for the crosswalk to clear.

When he got about 10 feet away, he started making strange noises at us and flailing his arms around. I had discreetly moved my body to the side to obstruct my right side and moved my hand into a ready position, while not exposing my firearm (I'd wager only other chl oregonians would have even recognized the implication of the move).

He started to close the gap between us and I yelled at him to back the **** up. I'm not a small guy (6'3", 200) and it made him hesitate for a second, before doing a 2-3 foot lunge at me and saying "Your gonna die".


I had a flash moment where I considered drawing, but I still had enough space and I could clearly see his hands and no weapon.

I yelled at him again, this time with some more authority and anger and he ran away.


I'm glad I didn't draw, as it ended up not being needed. I'm curious as to if you guys think that would have been warranted or not.


On our way home from Saturday market that day, we did see that homeless (I'd guess) guy again. This time he was rolling around in the middle of the street with traffic going out of their way to avoid him.

 

[billdeserthills]

Makes me wonder that more of these nuts don't get shot

 

[DLS]

Most has been discussed here already, but what I didn't see was a discussion on the problems with "multiple" devices. When one is carrying, for instance, pepper spray and a firearm (or any other combo, say a baton) several problems arise.

One is now you have increased the complexity of the decision-making process. You now must assess multiple levels of threat. If all you have is a firearm, it's either they have crossed the line causing you to draw or they have not yet crossed the line. It's a one or the other decision.

With several options you now need to assess the threat at a minimum of three levels. Level one, no action. Level two pepper spray level of response but not yet firearm level. Level three, time to draw the firearm. This must be done in a few moments of time.

You have increased the level of training and the complexity of carry. How are you going to carry the multiple devices and how much time do you want to spend training the presentation of the devices? What will you do if you went for the spray and the situation escalates? What to do if the opposite occurs?

You also have given the authorities and advocates for the recipients of your actions more leverage as they try to paint your actions in the negative. "Why didn't you just go for the spray Mr. Shooter". Do you really want to be answering questions like this in front of a jury?

I'm no lawyer, but I'd hate to be defending you if you had spray and opted for the gun … even in a very serious threat situation. Once can always be second guessed to one's detriment.

What do you all thing about this issue?



Oh, and my take on the OP (mirroring most others here)

1. He "done good" considering the experience faced.
2. An unloaded gun is an expensive, inefficient rock. Load that puppy!
3. Never go for the gun until you are really going to draw, keep all the elements of surprise in your favor. Even favoring the draw hand toward the gun might tip off the perp.
4. Only go for the gun when you have determined you WILL shoot if the threat continues.
5. Practice with your carry rig, often and with all sorts of clothing.
6. Be the first to call the police, don't wait a nano-second longer than necessary (of course making sure you are safe before calling)

 

[EPS]

Lol drugs are great .
I had a lady screaming at me a few weeks ago because she didn't like the flashing lights on my truck .mmmmmm

 

[DLS]

Good points. This thread was a good read.

Personal story.

I was downtown Portland a few weeks ago with the Mrs. and our 3 kids. Say you want about downtown and it's state of occupants, but we like to go down to Saturday market with the kids, and the variety of people it brings usually start good family talks.

Anyway, as we're walking towards waterfront at around noon, I noticed about 500 ft ahead of us, what appeared to me a man on some sort of drugs. I'm no expert, but the movements and gait he had, he was way UP. Meth?

Anyway, he's being very sporadic, yelling at some bystanders at a bus stop and generally being a nuisance.

I led my family across a nearby crosswalk to the other side of the street to avoid his antics, but to my dismay, as we approach the next crosswalk, he decides he's going to cross and approach us.

Now my wife knows, I'm carrying in condition 1 and keeps her head cool as she ushers our kids behind me and I face the guy as we wait for the crosswalk to clear.

When he got about 10 feet away, he started making strange noises at us and flailing his arms around. I had discreetly moved my body to the side to obstruct my right side and moved my hand into a ready position, while not exposing my firearm (I'd wager only other chl oregonians would have even recognized the implication of the move).

He started to close the gap between us and I yelled at him to back the **** up. I'm not a small guy (6'3", 200) and it made him hesitate for a second, before doing a 2-3 foot lunge at me and saying "Your gonna die".


I had a flash moment where I considered drawing, but I still had enough space and I could clearly see his hands and no weapon.

I yelled at him again, this time with some more authority and anger and he ran away.


I'm glad I didn't draw, as it ended up not being needed. I'm curious as to if you guys think that would have been warranted or not.


On our way home from Saturday market that day, we did see that homeless (I'd guess) guy again. This time he was rolling around in the middle of the street with traffic going out of their way to avoid him.

I'd say well done especially considering you faced a real issue in real time. It's easy for us to cherry pick "better" behavior from the comfort of our computer chair. Having said that … <Grin>

I think you need to consider disparity of force issues. I too face this as I'm 6'4" and probably doubled the weight of the tweaker you faced.

While his actions may have met the threshold allowing you to draw, you are in a very open, very public space with room to maneuver. Moving laterally (away from your family and others) may give you a better position to control the encounter. If forces the attacker to change direction, forces him to rethink his course of action, may put you in a better defensive position and clearly shows intent to de-escalate the situation.

I'd also have immediately called and reported the incident. While the police would not have done anything there is now a record of you being accosted by the guy … and that would play well if a subsequent meeting went badly.

$0.02

 

[Elf]

Most of my education on the "when and why" aspect has come from:

• Armed Citizens Legal Defense Network educational material
  • About Self Defense Law
  • Membership Benefits
• Massad Ayoob's MAG-40 class ( MAG40 - Massad Ayoob Group ), which goes into considerable depth
• Massad Ayoob's "Deadly Force - Understanding Your Right to Self Defense" ( https://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Force-Understanding-Right-Defense/dp/1440240612/ )

The Cliff Notes version is that shooting someone is considered assault or homicide, but is considered justifiable if the elements of self defense can be proven; e.g. shooting was necessary to prevent death or grave bodily harm, which you have to be able to articulate.

Generally this is done through proving:

• Ability - did they have the physical ability, through superior strength, training (that you knew at the time), or weapons, to kill you or to cause grave bodily harm
• Opportunity - did they have the proximity to you to be able to use their ability (e.g. based on their distance to you, could they stab you before you could stop them, are you within the range of their handgun, etc.)
• Jeopardy - did they display the manifest intent, through their physical actions and words, that led you to believe they were going to use their ability against you

Claiming self defense is an "affirmative defense," meaning that the burden is on you to articulate and prove why using force was justified, as the use of force that would otherwise be illegal is not in question.

Anyways after a lot of time and money spent on education I would say that I am both less likely to even display a gun if the situation doesn't warrant it, and more confident about displaying and using a gun when it crosses the threshold into being truly necessary. There are endless numbers of cases of people who had more or less justified shoots or even just displayed but didn't use a firearm, and didn't know what to do to manage the situation afterwards and had their lives ruined. Society does not make it easy. I know I don't need to sell it any more in this thread, but I think education should be a top priority for anyone that carries a gun, even if only out of a sense of self preservation from the legal system, which is a force much more powerful than any attacking meth head.

 

[Lasers]

I'd say well done considering you faced a real issue in real time. It's easy for us to cherry pick "better" behavior from the comfort of our computer chair. Having said that … <Grin>

I think you need to consider disparity of force issues. I too face this as I'm 6'4" and probably doubled the weight of the tweaker you faced.

While his actions may have met the threshold allowing you to draw, you are in a very open, very public space with room to maneuver. Moving laterally (away from your family and others) may give you a better position to control the encounter. If forces the attacker to change direction, forces him to rethink his course of action, may put you in a better defensive position and clearly shows intent to de-escalate the situation.

I'd also have immediately called and reported the incident. While the police would not have done anything there is now a record of you being accosted by the guy … and that would play well if a subsequent meeting went badly.

$0.02

You are probably right. And at the end of the day, I'm very grateful that everyone just walked away (yes, including the tweaker =).

You're right about the disparity of force. I wonder if the effects of drugs would have weight to a Jury... I'm sure he was feeling no pain.


Thanks for the kudos. I've been stuck replaying the event in my mind over and over and over, so it actually made me feel a bit better reading that "well done". Thanks.

 

[billdeserthills]

Lol drugs are great .
I had a lady screaming at me a few weeks ago because she didn't like the flashing lights on my truck .mmmmmm

If she had been properly dosed those lights wouldn't bother her

 

[bbbass]

True story: years ago I was in Reno with buddy... just an overnight stay at Circus Circus. After chomping out at the Sushi Club (it was a good place then and all-you-can-eat), he decided to pull slots. I went to bed since I don't like gambling my hard earned dough. I woke later and couldn't get back to sleep so I went for a walk... outside... about 2am. The main street I was on was totally deserted and I was unarmed. I see this wild looking character coming towards me from a large distance... did I cross the street? No. I was minding my own biz but keeping an eye and making direct eye contact... at the last minute he jumps at me and yells. That's all... he just wanted to F with me. Moral of the story... avoid bad situations or at least don't make them worse.

 

[1371JarHead]

Most has been discussed here already, but what I didn't see was a discussion on the problems with "multiple" devices. When one is carrying, for instance, pepper spray and a firearm (or any other combo, say a baton) several problems arise.

One is now you have increased the complexity of the decision-making process. You now must assess multiple levels of threat. If all you have is a firearm, it's either they have crossed the line causing you to draw or they have not yet crossed the line. It's a one or the other decision.

With several options you now need to assess the threat at a minimum of three levels. Level one, no action. Level two pepper spray level of response but not yet firearm level. Level three, time to draw the firearm. This must be done in a few moments of time.

You have increased the level of training and the complexity of carry. How are you going to carry the multiple devices and how much time do you want to spend training the presentation of the devices? What will you do if you went for the spray and the situation escalates? What to do if the opposite occurs?

You also have given the authorities and advocates for the recipients of your actions more leverage as they try to paint your actions in the negative. "Why didn't you just go for the spray Mr. Shooter". Do you really want to be answering questions like this in front of a jury?

I'm no lawyer, but I'd hate to be defending you if you had spray and opted for the gun … even in a very serious threat situation. Once can always be second guessed to one's detriment.

What do you all thing about this issue?



Oh, and my take on the OP (mirroring most others here)

1. He "done good" considering the experience faced.
2. An unloaded gun is an expensive, inefficient rock. Load that puppy!
3. Never go for the gun until you are really going to draw, keep all the elements of surprise in your favor. Even favoring the draw hand toward the gun might tip off the perp.
4. Only go for the gun when you have determined you WILL shoot if the threat continues.
5. Practice with your carry rig, often and with all sorts of clothing.
6. Be the first to call the police, don't wait a nano-second longer than necessary (of course making sure you are safe before calling)

Thanks dude, all good advice..