Good guy with a gun stops bad guy with a gun, gets killed by police

[Capin JRo]

Too bad 'prison policy dot org' doesn't bother to chase down the statistics on lethal threats faced by police officers country-by-country. Or cops KIA by country. This typical superficial one-sided propaganda is not only disingenuous, it is actually dangerous as it creates unnecessary enmity. No rational person is "ok with police killing" as you glibly suggest. What rational observers would conclude is that cops are asked to make split-second life or death decisions -- almost always in reaction to the improper behavior of a citizen contact who presents as a threat to the officers who have every right to clock out at the end of their shifts and see their families. For every Derek Chauvin (long my he rot), there are a thousand police officers who ran TOWARD the burning buildings on 9/11 when everyone else was running away.

Your not wrong.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

Just saying the red line isn't always clear and a lot of cops have died not know the bad guy is bad..

The old woman didn't know she was about to be murdered that day and that a man 16 years old was going to gun her down for her possessions. Again we really don't know the intent to escalate by the criminal and all too often it starts with the thief.

I have carried a ccw for 48 years and traveled a great deal living away from home for months at a time. Still here and not second guessing a single decision in 48 years while carrying. I think I got it figured out what to do and not do.

Well, I wish you the best, sincerely. But if you think it is your job to stop bad guys before the can act badly, well, continued good luck!

 

[Longwalkhome]

Great string you posted addressing several points. Good on you!

Ah, thanks, back to legitimate questions. You don't. But because we inserted ourselves into a situation with possible could, might, may happen conditions, this does not me was can draw on someone because something could happen. We have to be able to articulate a deadly force threat. Great question!

Good example that situations are dynamic and once someone is trying to take your gun from you while assaulting you, articulating a deadly force threat become possible. BTW, what Brown did was not shoplifting, it was felony strong armed robbery in most locations. Taking of property by force or fear. He assaulted the clerk who was trying to stop him.

As I read it he got caught by the Asian owner of the store shoplifting and it turned into a strong arm robbery. Brown then assaulted the cop and got killed trying to take the cops gun. It all started with the shoplifting in the event but Browns course was set before he grabbed the cigars.

 

[billdeserthills]

We can debate the finer points of the cause of death. Regardless of what his poor mother said at his sentencing, Derek Chauvin was a bully and a bad cop. His actions on that day were punitive and out of policy. He's got 22.5 years now to think about that.

Derek was a bully but he didn't deserve 22 years in jail

 

[Knebel]

If there is already an officer at the scene...why get involved? Police us already there to handle it!?

 

[billdeserthills]

If there is already an officer at the scene...why get involved? Police us already there to handle it!?

The only officer at the scene was the dead cop the would-be mass shooter got first thing. When the civilian showed up, first thing he did was take out the would-be mass shooter--when backup cops arrived the first thing they did was kill the civilian, who was a hero btw

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

I sure as hell never signed up to get killed in cold blood by a cop who doesn't have 2 seconds to warn me that I'm doing something wrong by saving innocent lives using my gun

But you did. You assume the risks of carrying. A man smarter than me once told me "if you are unwilling to accept the risks of carrying, DO NOT CARRY." One of those risks is being mistaken for the "bad guy with a gun" by cops arriving on scene. The best way I know of to avoid this scenario is to practice situational dynamics. And practice. Over and over. And hope you never have to execute on your training. But realize: Even if you do everything right, inserting yourself into a violent even, inserting yourself in a crime in progress does carry risk. If you are unwilling to assume that risk, DO NOT CARRY. Or do. And take your chances.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

The only officer at the scene was the dead cop the would-be mass shooter got first thing. When the civilian showed up, first thing he did was take out the would-be mass shooter--when backup cops arrived the first thing they did was kill the civilian, who was a hero btw

Again, you sound pretty knowledgeable about this event. Can you please point me to the link where I can see the video evidence you are using to substantiate your position? Thank you.

 

[Longwalkhome]

Well, I wish you the best, sincerely. But if you think it is your job to stop bad guys before the can act badly, well, continued good luck!

Bad men tell you what they are going to do if you just listen. The idea you can outdraw a bad man with a gun will get you killed. That's why a cop has his gun out before the shooting starts if he wants to live.

Luck favors the prepared, if you live 69 years it will be more than luck that gets you there in my opinion.

Have a great day, time for me to find another thread.

 

[billdeserthills]

But you did. You assume the risks of carrying. A man smarter than me once told me "if you are unwilling to accept the risks of carrying, DO NOT CARRY." One of those risks is being mistaken for the "bad guy with a gun" by cops arriving on scene. The best way I know of to avoid this scenario is to practice situational dynamics. And practice. Over and over. And hope you never have to execute on your training. But realize: Even if you do everything right, inserting yourself into a violent even, inserting yourself in a crime in progress does carry risk. If you are unwilling to assume that risk, DO NOT CARRY. Or do. And take your chances.

Only reason I carry is because the last time I was beaten & robbed. I called the police afterwards and they refused to take my report, laughed at me & hung up. Obviously I need the tools to defend myself, since the cops have let me down

Sure hope I can keep on walking away from the next mass shooting I come across

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

Bad men tell you what they are going to do if you just listen. The idea you can outdraw a bad man with a gun will get you killed. That's why a cop has his gun out before the shooting starts if he wants to live.

Luck favors the prepared, if you live 69 years it will be more than luck that gets you there in my opinion.

Have a great day, time for me to find another thread.

Cheers. Reasonable people can disagree. Enjoy the rest of your Sunday.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

Only reason I carry is because the last time I was beaten & robbed. I called the police afterwards and they refused to take my report, laughed at me & hung up. Obviously I need the tools to defend myself, since the cops have let me down

Sure hope I can keep on walking away from the next mass shooting I come across

Reasonable people can disagree. Enjoy the rest of your Sunday.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

Sure, lets just let all the criminals out of the jail--sure works in New York

Police Chief: Arrested Looters in NYC Are Immediately Released Because of Bail-Reform Law

Most of the looters and rioters arrested by the NYPD over the past several days are immediately released as a direct result of New York's new bail-reform law, New York City police chief Terrence Monahan told the New York Post on Tuesday.While the city police made over 650 arrests on Monday night...

news.yahoo.com

Straw man fallacy.

I bet you can't wait to live in New York

Argumentum ad hominem.

 

[billdeserthills]

Again, you sound pretty knowledgeable about this event. Can you please point me to the link where I can see the video evidence you are using to substantiate your position? Thank you.

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[billdeserthills]

Straw man fallacy.

Argumentum ad hominem.

Call it what ya want--anybody with a little sense can now see there is zero point to ending a shooting because cops will come to kill you afterwards

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

MSN

www.msn.com

Yes, I have seen that news story. I am asking specifically for the video evidence -- that would be a body cam of the officer shooting our good samaritan. Without that, all we have is speculation.

 

[Member 53328]

If only life was fair. Actions have consequences. Good or bad.

 

[bradsteen]

@bbbass & @1775usmc
There are a bunch more

Mapping Police Violence

Law enforcement agencies across the country are failing to provide us with even basic information about the lives they take. So we collect the data ourselves.

mappingpoliceviolence.org

This one is literally just numbers, numbers are hard to argue with. But I'm sure that won't stop you.

Numbers can be spun inquite a few different ways depending on how they filter their data. For example, I saw a quote about school shootings back in 2019 that said there were over X number of school shootings that year and rising. Now, i consider a school shooting to be one that happens at a school while school is in session and staff are on site. Uppn further research i learned that they consider a school shooting as any shooting that happens on school grounds, regardless of what time of day or who is involved. So their numbers included things like shots being fired in the school parking lot at 2am. Those "other" reports inflated the numbers by over 50%.

Data "analysis" is used to spread a biased narrative all the time. True scientific method starts with a hypothesis about what the outcome will be, and then uses consistent and measurable tests to prove or disprove that hypothesis without bias and in an open, transparent way.

Mapping Police Violence

Law enforcement agencies across the country are failing to provide us with even basic information about the lives they take. So we collect the data ourselves.

mappingpoliceviolence.org

They start their discussion about data with a rant full of definite statements - "police are", not "we suspect" or "we seek to prove". They further don't make their data set open for others to compare or check their work, and admit that much of the data is "crowdsourced". I work in tech, so if you need me to explain the potential pitfalls of crowdsourced data, I'd be happy to do that. But i think this does a great job of summarizing the issue:

Boaty McBoatface: What You Get When You Let the Internet Decide (Published 2016)

A proposal by a British agency to let the Internet name a research ship is the latest in a trend of web users having some fun with public polls.

www.nytimes.com

Not an apples to apples comparison, but similar enough to matter - when you have an unknown pool of people doing the work, and the gathering of data is manual, and no transparency of your quality assurance process, and no sharing of raw data so your findings can be validated and checked by other parties, it's not science.

 

[Ops]

he shouldnt have picked up the AR, kick it away. but you cant change the outcome. at least he protected everyone else.

 

[billdeserthills]

Yes, I have seen that news story. I am asking specifically for the video evidence -- that would be a body cam of the officer shooting our good samaritan. Without that, all we have is speculation.

I think it's pretty clear that a cop killed our hero