Good guy with a gun stops bad guy with a gun, gets killed by police

[No_Regerts]

@bbbass & @1775usmc
There are a bunch more

Mapping Police Violence

Law enforcement agencies across the country are failing to provide us with even basic information about the lives they take. So we collect the data ourselves.

mappingpoliceviolence.org

This one is literally just numbers, numbers are hard to argue with. But I'm sure that won't stop you.

So were on pace to kill the average number of people this year, as compared to every year since people started keeping track?

800,000 sworn officers working, on average, 174 hours per month without overtime, equals 1.67 BILLION hours of policing per year. With an average of 1000 people killed by police per year, thats one per 1,670,000 hours of policing.

Not exactly an epidemic....

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

I'm not seeing the outrage here, seems to me too many people find a cop killing a hero to be just another day & that pisses me off

Too many people are drawing conclusions based on incomplete evidence and their feelz and that pisses me off.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

So were on pace to kill the average number of people this year, as compared to every year since people started keeping track?

800,000 sworn officers working, on average, 174 hours per month without overtime, equals 1.67 BILLION hours of policing per year. With an average of 1000 people killed by police per year, thats one per 1,670,000 hours of policing.

Not exactly an epidemic....

I love how they call it 'police violence.' This hyperbole is their way of letting us know the argument they are presenting along with its cherry-picked out-of-context "data" should simply be ignored by rational, objective people.

 

[bradsteen]

I know it's impolitik to repost one's own words, but...

Numbers can be spun inquite a few different ways depending on how they filter their data. For example, I saw a quote about school shootings back in 2019 that said there were over X number of school shootings that year and rising. Now, i consider a school shooting to be one that happens at a school while school is in session and staff are on site. Uppn further research i learned that they consider a school shooting as any shooting that happens on school grounds, regardless of what time of day or who is involved. So their numbers included things like shots being fired in the school parking lot at 2am. Those "other" reports inflated the numbers by over 50%.

Data "analysis" is used to spread a biased narrative all the time. True scientific method starts with a hypothesis about what the outcome will be, and then uses consistent and measurable tests to prove or disprove that hypothesis without bias and in an open, transparent way.

Mapping Police Violence

Law enforcement agencies across the country are failing to provide us with even basic information about the lives they take. So we collect the data ourselves.

mappingpoliceviolence.org

They start their discussion about data with a rant full of definite statements - "police are", not "we suspect" or "we seek to prove". They further don't make their data set open for others to compare or check their work, and admit that much of the data is "crowdsourced". I work in tech, so if you need me to explain the potential pitfalls of crowdsourced data, I'd be happy to do that. But i think this does a great job of summarizing the issue:

Boaty McBoatface: What You Get When You Let the Internet Decide (Published 2016)

A proposal by a British agency to let the Internet name a research ship is the latest in a trend of web users having some fun with public polls.

www.nytimes.com

Not an apples to apples comparison, but similar enough to matter - when you have an unknown pool of people doing the work, and the gathering of data is manual, and no transparency of your quality assurance process, and no sharing of raw data so your findings can be validated and checked by other parties, it's not science.

 

[Gunner3456]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1409245706011959296

 

[billdeserthills]

Too many people are drawing conclusions based on incomplete evidence and their feelz and that pisses me off.

Yeah well, you seem to think the hero might have tripped and offed himself--not what happened

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

So were on pace to kill the average number of people this year, as compared to every year since people started keeping track?

800,000 sworn officers working, on average, 174 hours per month without overtime, equals 1.67 BILLION hours of policing per year. With an average of 1000 people killed by police per year, thats one per 1,670,000 hours of policing.

Not exactly an epidemic....

Now replace 'police violence' with the everyday homicide numbers in there. Compare and contrast. But, come on man! Let's not let facts get in the way of a good argument!

 

[bbbass]

@bbbass & @1775usmc
There are a bunch more

Mapping Police Violence

Law enforcement agencies across the country are failing to provide us with even basic information about the lives they take. So we collect the data ourselves.

mappingpoliceviolence.org

This one is literally just numbers, numbers are hard to argue with. But I'm sure that won't stop you.

Again, a one sided simplistic view that neglects the facts on the ground, shows intense bias, uses charged words such as "police violence" instead of "use of deadly force", and makes the claim that "Most police killings go uncharged". Well, of course they do, THEY WERE JUSTIFIED USES OF DEADLY FORCE!!!

"But I'm sure that won't stop you."

What, I'm not supposed to challenge or refute BS???

That's a good one. I can't stop laughing!!!

Ok. I have your bias figured out now. Thanx for revealing yourself.

 

[American123]

I see. Some conspiracy there in the jury? Maybe George Soros got to them? "Vee know vhere your children go to der schkool!"

I suppose if the defense team can articulate malfeasance in the trial, he can file an appeal. I'm no medical expert -- and I assume you aren't either -- but it's hard to imagine 9-1/2 minutes of pressure on the main artery feeding oxygen to the brain not at least contributing to your fellow citizen's globally-televised demise. Medical expert opinions I've read state that after four minutes with no oxygen, the brain will start shutting down other organs to keep itself alive. Once Officer Chauvin gained Mr. Floyd's compliance (like a minute into the film), they should have cuffed him and stuffed him. And taken him straight to HCMC for treatment. Any force used by a LEO beyond that which is required to gain compliance of a resisting subject is excessive, out of policy, and in some cases -- like this one -- criminal.

I've said my piece. You can have the last word on this one.

Agreed things could have been done differently, but based on the first autopsy, and reports/video expressing trouble breathing even before he got out of the car, which is why he wanted out of the car so he could breathe better, the result would have been likely the same. I took the first autopsy done that showed a fatal does of fentynal in perps system, combined with the reports that perp was complaining about not being able to breathe even while he was in the patrol car even before the incident on the ground as a rather straightforward explanation, albeit inconvenient for the race hustlers pushing an agenda.

Later on, as a national movement picked up steam, there were many "experts" whose testimony came forward to support the movement, hard to take those seriously when they possibly/likely wanted to be part of something bigger than themselves. When they started glorifying and sanctifying the life of a scumbag, all reason and logic went out the window.

Beyond those details there is a lot of room to interpret how things went. I've also learned, personally, if you have the ability to profess "I can't breathe," and complain repeatedly, for minutes on end, you have air. It might be unpleasant, even scary, but not deadly.

I do appreciate your viewpoint on the matter though, and discussion is always good.

 

[bbbass]

Like I said numbers are hard to argue with, but I knew you would try.

I never once stated that job is easy but that doesn't and never will give police the rite to take away ours!

Pure numbers/stats are meaningless when taken out of context. And portrait of numbers with incomplete or biased anaylysis and promulgating flawed conclusions is IMO the most popular form of fraud.

I think I am done with this. I'm disgusted that a fellow gun owner can be so naive and gullible. You are seeing what you want to see. I hate trendy terms, but it's called "confirmation bias" by people that do throw terms around.

 

[WillametteWill]

I'm not seeing the outrage here, seems to me too many people find a cop killing a hero to be just another day & that pisses me off

I want to be clear in my position. What happened was not okay, but from the albeit extremely limited information we have on what transpired, I can see that there is very possibly no criminal or negligent action on the officer's part. Facts could play out that change my mind. Haven't seen any yet.

Lethal force encounters (where two had already died) do not involve sitting-in-a-cubical, bean counter type decision. Violent death had already occurred and an officer was tasked with making a life or death decision in less time that it took me type "life or death." The greatest fear I have at the moment is whether my puppy will jump on the table and eat my nachos. If I misspell a word, I can hit backspace. There is no time limit on my typing. That officer had plenty of more serious conditions to ponder...in a second and no backspace key.

So no, I have no outrage. Well, not true actually. I do for the evil bad guy who caused all of this in the first place. Our outrage (IMHO) seems to be misguided in many cases toward the folks faced with cleaning up the mess left by evil men.

 

[bbbass]

Negligent homicide when performed by a LEO is an accident, by a civilian it is 15 to life.

By definition, if done in good faith by our employee in public safety, it is not negligent homicide. If it was, they would be charged with such. But Grand Juries examine the evidence and a jury of OUR peers most often rules these are justified uses of force. If truly an "accident" as happened with the so called Taser Incident, the officer should be fired and the dept pay civil damages.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

Agreed things could have been done differently, but based on the first autopsy, and reports/video expressing trouble breathing even before he got out of the car, which is why he wanted out of the car so he could breathe better, the result would have been likely the same. I took the first autopsy done that showed a fatal does of fentynal in perps system, combined with the reports that perp was complaining about not being able to breathe even while he was in the patrol car even before the incident on the ground as a rather straightforward explanation, albeit inconvenient for the race hustlers pushing an agenda.

Later on, as a national movement picked up steam, there were many "experts" whose testimony came forward to support the movement, hard to take those seriously when they possibly/likely wanted to be part of something bigger than themselves. When they started glorifying and sanctifying the life of a scumbag, all reason and logic went out the window.

Beyond those details there is a lot of room to interpret how things went. I've also learned, personally, if you have the ability to profess "I can't breathe," and complain repeatedly, for minutes on end, you have air. It might be unpleasant, even scary, but not deadly.

I do appreciate your viewpoint on the matter though, and discussion is always good.

Likewise. Reasonable people can disagree. I appreciate your viewpoint as well, and respectful discussion is always wlecome.

Also to be very very clear: George Floyd was a scumbag, a worthless druggie, a thug who beat a pregnant woman, and a career criminal whose contribution to society was a negative one. That we have statues of him around the country is appalling. That his four hour funeral was broadcast on five networks is appalling.

 

[Capin JRo]

Pure numbers/stats are meaningless when taken out of context. And portrait of numbers with incomplete or biased anaylysis and promulgating flawed conclusions is IMO the most popular form of fraud.

I think I am done with this. I'm disgusted that a fellow gun owner can be so naive and gullible. You are seeing what you want to see. I hate trendy terms, but it's called "confirmation bias" by people that do throw terms around.

This is not a gun ownership issue, this is our civil rights issue. You seem to believe there is only one answer to every side, I don't know why people like you think they can change people's mids especially in the internet.

This is not trendy we have had a problem for a long time. I could care less about your opinion but you seem to care way too much about others.

 

[billdeserthills]

I want to be clear in my position. What happened was not okay, but from the albeit extremely limited information we have on what transpired, I can see that there is very possibly no criminal or negligent action on the officer's part. Facts could play out that change my mind. Haven't seen any yet.

Lethal force encounters (where two had already died) do not involve sitting-in-a-cubical, bean counter type decision. Violent death had already occurred and an officer was tasked with making a life or death decision in less time that it took me type "life or death." The greatest fear I have at the moment is whether my puppy will jump on the table and eat my nachos. If I misspell a word, I can hit backspace. There is no time limit on my typing. That officer had plenty of more serious conditions to ponder...in a second and no backspace key.

So no, I have no outrage. Well, not true actually. I do for the evil bad guy who caused all of this in the first place. Our outrage (IMHO) seems to be misguided in many cases toward the folks faced with cleaning up the mess left by evil men.

I agree--there is little chance that the officer who murdered this hero will ever be charged for it

 

[bradsteen]

This is like talking to a toddler. You're entitled to your own opinion, but don't expect to convert people to your way of thinking by using inflamatory language and pointing to biased data.

 

[bbbass]

This is not a gun ownership issue, this is our civil rights issue. You seem to believe there is only one answer to every side, I don't know why people like you think they can change people's mids especially in the internet.

This is not trendy we have had a problem for a long time. I could care less about your opinion but you seem to care way too much about others.

Well bless your sweet little heart. I say that I'm disappointed that a fellow gun owner could think like you and you come back with a statement attempting to invalidate my feeling by telling me that THIS is not a gun ownership issue. How much of a dolt do you think I am? I know we are talking about an OIS, but I expressed my FEELINGs of disappointment and explained why, which you have invalidated. I think I'm gonna cry. I need a safe space.

1. Back at ya.
2. I'm not trying to change your mind I'm refuting your BS. Which IMO is not done nearly enough in today's world. I will fight cop haters wherever they may rear their ugly minds.
3. Who are "people like me"???
4. The comment about trendy was in reference to terminology, as in "confirmation bias". Do I need to spell out for you what that means?
5. Yes, I care about others. I stand convicted of caring. You got me. Oh my. I'm soooooo sorry that I cared. I won't do it again.
6. If YOU don't care what others think, WHY are you posting YOUR opinions on this incident, as well as on 'Police violence" in the USA compared to other countries??? Why are you so embattled with others trying to PROVE yourself right? This seems like a pretty contradictory attitude to me. But some people will say anything when they start sputtering nonsense.

Oh wait, I forgot, YOU don't answer to ME!! ROFLMAO

 

[bbbass]

This is like talking to a toddler. You're entitled to your own opinion, but don't expect to convert people to your way of thinking by using inflamatory language and pointing to biased data.

I forgot.... Who was it that said, "You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts".

Possibly, was it......... EVERYBODY?

 

[billdeserthills]

This is like talking to a toddler. You're entitled to your own opinion, but don't expect to convert people to your way of thinking by using inflamatory language and pointing to biased data.

Next time you happen to see a mass shooting taking place I hope you know what to do

 

[billdeserthills]

Intolerant mass killer with knife in Germany shot in leg--maybe Germans can train our cops?

3 Dead, 5 injured in knife attack: 'All of Bavaria is in mourning'

"All of Bavaria is in mourning."

www.newser.com