Good guy with a gun stops bad guy with a gun, gets killed by police

[American123]

Do we have body cam from the Denver shooting? I have not seen any. I'm not sure there is enough data yet for us to start armchair quarterbacking this one.

I watched the Phoenix body cam and the cop clearly instructed the guy with the gun to drop it. He did not. Cop comes on scene, sees a person pointing a gun at people. The cop does not have the luxury of yelling out "Hey you there with the pistol... are you a good guy with a gun or a bad guy with a gun?" Cop says drop the gun you drop the gun. And you NEVER hold people at gunpoint for shoplifting. That is a crime in itself. This is basic stuff. Frankly, you never hold people at gunpoint for any reason -- the rules of engagement are crystal clear -- as is the law in most states: you only pull out that roscoe in response to an articulable fear of lethal assault, sexual assault, or great bodily harm. And in castle doctrine states, you may shoot first ask questions later if someone comes inside your home without your invitation. This is open or concealed carry 101.

Frankly, I have little sympathy for irresponsible gun owners who do not bother to get the training to be adequately informed and skilled in the pantheon of public carrying of weapons and their use in self defense. While some people may applaud vigilantism, which is certainly their right, in my view it's an awfully good way to lose every single thing you have in this world up to and including your life. YMMV. Sadly, two of our fellow citizens learned this very tough permanent lesson.

Adrenaline does some amazing things. I can understand how these things happen, but still not appreciate it.

 

[Member 53328]

@bbbass & @1775usmc
There are a bunch more

Mapping Police Violence

Law enforcement agencies across the country are failing to provide us with even basic information about the lives they take. So we collect the data ourselves.

mappingpoliceviolence.org

This one is literally just numbers, numbers are hard to argue with. But I'm sure that won't stop you.

Do you understand the definition of biased? I'm not going to argue with you. Live in your fantasy of a systematically racist America where cops run the street looking for unarmed black people to kill…. You want a change. Go put on a badge. But you'll have to pass the application, physical, oral board, background, chief/sheriff interview, and psych test. And from your "opinions" and "view" of America I hope that wouldn't happen.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

Just an example , Michael Brown started out shoplifting cigars only to go on to assaulting a cop and he got killed. Now I understand a civilian should just let the thief have what they want but how do you know that's where it ends?

Not your concern. Unless you can articulate the correct threat, keep your gun in the holster. Or don't and take your chances.

2020 is said to have a record number of cops dead at over 400. (Bing search), how many do you think died unaware that the bad guy was about to kill them?

If I get your argument, you are suggesting prior restraint of a fellow citizen at gunpoint "just in case" that fellow citizen is the kind of person who might go on to cause other mayhem or even kill somebody or a cop. Sorry, friend, with all due respect that is a nice prison sentence for you waiting to happen. Or worse.

Point being, nobody is a mind reader so I tend to be safe rather than sorry. A thief can't be trusted in my opinion and while I wouldn't hold a gun on then that would be seen as brandishing I would have a gun in my hand unseen.

Again, step outside of what your elected leaders have determined you may do with your firearm and risk your freedom, your reputation, your assets, possibly your life. Why? Over a six-pack of beer? Hell, over a 2021 Porsche 911 GT3? Not me. YMMV.

"Early on June 17, Elsa Mikeska was shot and killed outside a Houston gym. The 62-year-old grandmother had just pulled into the gym parking lot when two men in an older Chevy Suburban got out, apparently demanding money, and then shot her dead as she fled toward the gym entrance. At this point, one of those responsible, a 16-year-old now charged with capital murder, has been apprehended, while two others remain at large."

Sad. Don't understand the relevance to this topic, however.

 

[Capin JRo]

Do you understand the definition of biased? I'm not going to argue with you. Live in your fantasy of a systematically racist America where cops run the street looking for unarmed black people to kill…. You want a change. Go put on a badge. But you'll have to pass the application, physical, oral board, background, chief/sheriff interview, and psych test. And from your "opinions" and "view" of America I hope that wouldn't happen.

Like I said numbers are hard to argue with, but I knew you would try.

I never once stated that job is easy but that doesn't and never will give police the rite to take away ours!

 

[Member 53328]

Like I said numbers are hard to argue with, but I knew you would try.

I never once stated that job is easy but that doesn't and never will give police the rite to take away ours!

We can all post articles… siding one way or another https://www.maciverinstitute.com/2021/04/the-truth-about-police-shootings-in-america/

 

[billdeserthills]

In my view, your ire is misdirected. You should turn your indignance toward the civilian vigilante who failed to assess the situational dynamic and thought it was a good idea to walk into the middle of a crime scene and make himself look like a criminal. This is carry 101.

You mean the hero civilian who actually stopped the would be mass shooter?

Yeah, that's one hero who had a lot of nerve, I guess you woulda preferred to see the shooter kill a lot more innocent folks, instead

 

[crstrode]

Negligent homicide when performed by a LEO is an accident, by a civilian it is 15 to life.

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

I'm not OK with police killing because they can get away with it.
@bbbass

Not just “a few bad apples”: U.S. police kill civilians at much higher rates than other countries

Police violence is a systemic problem in the U.S., not simply incidental, and it happens on a scale far greater than other wealthy nations.

www.prisonpolicy.org

Too bad 'prison policy dot org' doesn't bother to chase down the statistics on lethal threats faced by police officers country-by-country. Or cops KIA by country. This typical superficial one-sided propaganda is not only disingenuous, it is actually dangerous as it creates unnecessary enmity. No rational person is "ok with police killing" as you glibly suggest. What rational observers would conclude is that cops are asked to make split-second life or death decisions -- almost always in reaction to the improper behavior of a citizen contact who presents as a threat to the officers who have every right to clock out at the end of their shifts and see their families. For every Derek Chauvin (long my he rot), there are a thousand police officers who ran TOWARD the burning buildings on 9/11 when everyone else was running away.

 

[billdeserthills]

For the facts that we have (very minimal) it was a justified shoot. Just like the shooting of Brooks, Brown, and Blake. The only difference is this guy was white so it won't get as much play time or a knee jerk reaction from a small subset of the population. Can we please stop with this RETARDED narrative that cops are killing Americans at a record pace….. LOL. You ever think that these Americans and their actions are the ones at fault? Not all but pretty dam close.

Exactly & that's what pisses me off about this shooting--the hero was the dead civilian, who was the one who killed the would-be mass shooter that shot & killed a cop

 

[billdeserthills]

Continuing to throw out 1 biased article is not a very strong defense….

Don't worry, there's lots more where that one came from

Since 2015, American Police Have Killed 1600% More U.S. Citizens Than 'Mass Shooters' | The Libertarian Institute

Tragically, in America, mass shootings—in which murdering psychopaths go on rampages in public spaces—have claimed the lives of 392 people since 2015. While this number is certainly shocking and far too high, during this same time frame, police in America have claimed the lives of 6,571...

libertarianinstitute.org

 

[Member 53328]

Exactly & that's what pisses me off about this shooting--the hero was the dead civilian, who was the one who killed the would-be mass shooter that shot & killed a cop

Cause he was an idiot standing over dead bodies with a rifle when the cops showed up…. Hero yes. Stupid yes. You can be both.

 

[billdeserthills]

Holding shoplifters at gunpoint is a despicable act. Ours is a civilized society. We only pull out our guns for the right reasons and at the right time, and under very specific narrow circumstances. Responding to shoplifters with your gatt is not one of those. Also, when the cop tells us to drop the gun, we drop the gun. The fellow in Phoenix neglected the situational dynamics in the encounter he created by pointing a firearm at other citizens. This is public carry 101. Sadly he failed. Sadly he refused to comply with the lawful orders of police. Sadly he is dead for it. Let's not let his death be in vain: Object lesson for any one of us who chooses the awesome responsibility of carrying a weapon in public.

Sure, lets just let all the criminals out of the jail--sure works in New York

Police Chief: Arrested Looters in NYC Are Immediately Released Because of Bail-Reform Law

Most of the looters and rioters arrested by the NYPD over the past several days are immediately released as a direct result of New York's new bail-reform law, New York City police chief Terrence Monahan told the New York Post on Tuesday.While the city police made over 650 arrests on Monday night...

news.yahoo.com

I bet you can't wait to live in New York

 

[WillametteWill]

What the h3ll ever happened to the spoken warning all lawmen on tv have uttered since we had movies, when the bad guy was holding a gun?

This is carry 101.

Great string you posted addressing several points. Good on you!

Just a question and not trying to argue. When a person decides to break the law and you catch them shoplifting, how do you know what they will do next when you don't know them personally nor what they may have done before shoplifting?

Ah, thanks, back to legitimate questions. You don't. But because we inserted ourselves into a situation with possible could, might, may happen conditions, this does not me was can draw on someone because something could happen. We have to be able to articulate a deadly force threat. Great question!

Just an example , Michael Brown started out shoplifting cigars only to go on to assaulting a cop and he got killed.

Good example that situations are dynamic and once someone is trying to take your gun from you while assaulting you, articulating a deadly force threat become possible. BTW, what Brown did was not shoplifting, it was felony strong armed robbery in most locations. Taking of property by force or fear. He assaulted the clerk who was trying to stop him.

 

[billdeserthills]

Cause he was an idiot standing over dead bodies with a rifle when the cops showed up…. Hero yes. Stupid yes. You can be both.

Maybe he didn't have a policeman's training or the experience of offing criminals

 

[American123]

Too bad 'prison policy dot org' doesn't bother to chase down the statistics on lethal threats faced by police officers country-by-country. Or cops KIA by country. This typical superficial one-sided propaganda is not only disingenuous, it is actually dangerous as it creates unnecessary enmity. No rational person is "ok with police killing" as you glibly suggest. What rational observers would conclude is that cops are asked to make split-second life or death decisions -- almost always in reaction to the improper behavior of a citizen contact who presents as a threat to the officers who have every right to clock out at the end of their shifts and see their families. For every Derek Chauvin (long my he rot), there are a thousand police officers who ran TOWARD the burning buildings on 9/11 when everyone else was running away.

Perp had a fatal dose of fentynal in his system, wouldn't have mattered if Chauvin had taken him to McDonalds and bought him a happy meal, he was dead already, his body just hadn't figured it out yet.

 

[billdeserthills]

Do you understand the definition of biased? I'm not going to argue with you. Live in your fantasy of a systematically racist America where cops run the street looking for unarmed black people to kill…. You want a change. Go put on a badge. But you'll have to pass the application, physical, oral board, background, chief/sheriff interview, and psych test. And from your "opinions" and "view" of America I hope that wouldn't happen.

Sounds like you are arguing right now

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

You mean the hero civilian who actually stopped the would be mass shooter?

Did I stutter?

Yeah, that's one hero who had a lot of nerve,

Sad that he lost his life. But he inserted himself into a dynamic and assumed the risks of doing so.

I guess you woulda preferred to see the shooter kill a lot more innocent folks, instead

Fallacy, argumentum ad hominem. I am not the topic of this thread, nor are your speculations about my preferences. That said, I would have preferred this citizen had acted differently. That said, we are all just standing around with our peckers in our hands without reliable evidence of what actually happened on that awful day. Until such time we see the totality of the evidence all we can do is speculate.

If you choose to carry, you and you alone are responsible for any act you commit regardless of your intentions. The first thing any worthwhile CHL instructor should tell you is "don't make yourself appear to be the bad guy when the cops show up."

 

[Longwalkhome]

Not your concern. Unless you can articulate the correct threat, keep your gun in the holster. Or don't and take your chances.

If I get your argument, you are suggesting prior restraint of a fellow citizen at gunpoint "just in case" that fellow citizen is the kind of person who might go on to cause other mayhem or even kill somebody or a cop. Sorry, friend, with all due respect that is a nice prison sentence for you waiting to happen. Or worse.

Again, step outside of what your elected leaders have determined you may do with your firearm and risk your freedom, your reputation, your assets, possibly your life. Why? Over a six-pack of beer? Hell, over a 2021 Porsche 911 GT3? Not me. YMMV.

Sad. Don't understand the relevance to this topic, however.

Just saying the red line isn't always clear and a lot of cops have died not know the bad guy is bad..

The old woman didn't know she was about to be murdered that day and that a man 16 years old was going to gun her down for her possessions. Again we really don't know the intent to escalate by the criminal and all too often it starts with the thief.

I have carried a ccw for 48 years and traveled a great deal living away from home for months at a time. Still here and not second guessing a single decision in 48 years while carrying. I think I got it figured out what to do and not do.

 

[billdeserthills]

Did I stutter?

Sad that he lost his life. But he inserted himself into a dynamic and assumed the risks of doing so.

Fallacy, argumentum ad hominem. I am not the topic of this thread, nor are your speculations about my preferences. That said, I would have preferred this citizen had acted differently. That said, we are all just standing around with our peckers in our hands without reliable evidence of what actually happened on that awful day. Until such time we see the totality of the evidence all we can do is speculate.

If you choose to carry, you and you alone are responsible for any act you commit regardless of your intentions. The first thing any worthwhile CHL instructor should tell you is "don't make yourself appear to be the bad guy when the cops show up."

I sure as hell never signed up to get killed in cold blood by a cop who doesn't have 2 seconds to warn me that I'm doing something wrong by saving innocent lives using my gun

 

[GripItAndRipIt]

Perp had a fatal dose of fentynal in his system, wouldn't have mattered if cop had taken him to McDonalds and bought him a happy meal, he was dead already, his body just hadn't figured it out yet.

We can debate the finer points of the cause of death. Regardless of what his poor mother said at his sentencing, Derek Chauvin was a bully and a bad cop. His actions on that day were punitive and out of policy. He's got 22.5 years now to think about that.