"Cheap" versus High End ARs

[Buster1]

I must be on a roll today. Even Colt and LMT change vendors on a frequent basis. I bought an LMT upper on a Gunbroker auction once. I had a PWA lower that I had owned for a few decades. An armorer friend and I mated the two together. I ended up holding the delta ring down while he used a rubber mallet to get the handguards in. It's the tightest fitting rifle I own. If you don't think it will perform as good as any factory weapon, come see me. Let's go to the range. FWIW, PWA was bought out by LMT when LMT started so I've probably got the equivalent of a factory LMT since it's built on the same tooling, using the same parts, etc.

In any event, when factory guns change vendors frequently so it makes me believe that your argument won't stand up to scrutiny. Add to that, some aftermarket companies make parts that exceed milspec. How would you feel about a Spikes upper and lower running a Sionics 1 x 8 barrel with a Toolcraft BCG and delivering shot groups under an inch at a hundred yards after 10,000 rounds?

Apparently, unless your rifle maker has held a government contract, it ain't bubblegum. Because we all know .Gov always buys and builds the best of everything.

 

[Mike7b]

Y'all sound like a bunch of teenage girls talking about the new cell phone daddy bought you. Mines better, no mines better than yours. Lmfao.

 

[rednek80]

Try some five shot groups and get back to us.

This is with a 1.5-5x leupold. Admittedly not as tight but every rifle is limited by operator ability.

 

[American123]

This is with a 1.5-5x leupold. Admittedly not as tight but every rifle is limited by operator ability.
View attachment 742597

True accuracy testing would require rifle clamped to solid rest that would eliminate any influence the shooter played on the part of the group. Anything other than that would be a combination of shooter consistency and rifle ability, assuming wind was also completely eliminated as well. Then we could get into the discussion of cold barrel vs hot barrel and the influence that has on shot placement, but that seems to complicated for people to factor in in addition to roll-marks.

As I have shot more and more over the past 10 years I have come to highly value the indian over the arrow, despite the fact that some arrows are made better than others.

 

[rednek80]

Anything under "minute of torso" is bonus material anyway...

 

[American123]

Anything under "minute of torso" is bonus material anyway...

I like "not trying very hard" and having shots stay inside 6" at 200 yards, seems like anyone can prone out, take their time, and produce decent groups at most distances with little practice. Doing stuff offhand for me has become the new focus.

 

[rednek80]

I like "not trying very hard" and having shots stay inside 6" at 200 yards, seems like anyone can prone out, take their time, and produce decent groups at most distances with little practice. Doing stuff offhand for me has become the new focus.

I've had good luck with the Henry 45-70 offhand at 200 on the steel plates out at COSSA

 

[Flopsweat]

The high end AR lowers now from companies like LMT or Radians are high end not because of quality of material or workmanship but also they have extra features like the radian allows you to lock the bolt back with the magazine release button. LMT and ADM have a bolt release on both sides.

Some high end are only in name only like NOVESKE, PWS, colt. you are basically buying because of branding

some mid end lowers like aero are actually better than a high end like a PWS

low ends like anderson are out of spec. if you just stock parts no problems. try putting in a match trigger on an anderson. some times it works some times it does not because the tolerances are not that tight

Don't mean to be a stick in the mud, but Shotgun News (before becoming Firearm News) evaluated a host of lowers. IIRC there were only about half a dozen companies providing the forgings for AR lowers. Anderson Arms was rated as high as the DPMS, Bushmaster, and other mil spec. lowers. Admittedly, I have never put a match trigger on an Anderson, but I have a rifle built on an Anderson lower that fits tight and delivers just as good as any other receiver out there for the intended purpose.

I've built at least 4 Anderson lowers and helped others build a few more. We usually used mid-grade or better FCGs (no drop-in triggers) and they all fit just fine. The only bad fit I've had from any brand was a polymer lower when they first started coming out.

 

[nk02442]

I must be on a roll today. Even Colt and LMT change vendors on a frequent basis. I bought an LMT upper on a Gunbroker auction once. I had a PWA lower that I had owned for a few decades. An armorer friend and I mated the two together. I ended up holding the delta ring down while he used a rubber mallet to get the handguards in. It's the tightest fitting rifle I own. If you don't think it will perform as good as any factory weapon, come see me. Let's go to the range. FWIW, PWA was bought out by LMT when LMT started so I've probably got the equivalent of a factory LMT since it's built on the same tooling, using the same parts, etc.

In any event, when factory guns change vendors frequently so it makes me believe that your argument won't stand up to scrutiny. Add to that, some aftermarket companies make parts that exceed milspec. How would you feel about a Spikes upper and lower running a Sionics 1 x 8 barrel with a Toolcraft BCG and delivering shot groups under an inch at a hundred yards after 10,000 rounds?

No they don't. They use the same vendors, and test everything that comes through whether its made in house or by one of their select vendors is tested and QAed.. Both destructive and non destructive testing to ensure conformance to spec and metallurgy/heat treatment.

A tight fitting AR means nothing. Its all Barrel, ammo and trigger, with the upper receiver stiffness coming into play and assuming its been properly timed and free -floated.

A company buying another company does not mean you basically got the same thing. It could not be further from the truth.

There is no such thing as exceeding mil spec. Its either within the specifications, or it is not. And whether is mil spec or not has little to do with performance.

Stop talking about things with authority when you have zero correct information on the subject.

You don't know what you don't know.

Go build a Ford F-150 from aftermarket parts from the ground up and let me know how that works out for you. Assuming you can actually get it to run, let me know how its holding up after 1000, 10,000, 100,000, 200,000 miles.

 

[nk02442]

Apparently, unless your rifle maker has held a government contract, it ain't bubblegum. Because we all know .Gov always buys and builds the best of everything.

Gov contracts for small arms require adherence to a plethora of requirements from ISO facilities (Made with quality machines, quality processed by people trained to operate said equipment and processes), Material Traceability Certification (So that inconell you speced is actually the real alloy and not some Chinese knock off that's going blow up when you go full auto), Strict testing in lots to ensure the end product is within specification, Bonding or Insurance to ensure the financial health of the company you are contracting with so they can pay their bills and vendors (Which will prevent them from cutting corners), and most importantly.....passing strict testing in a scientific environment in a statistical significant numbers to have a high degree of confidence the end product will perform as advertised. And throughout performance of the contract they are subject to surprise visits and inspections, can pull any product off the line to measure/test it; with failure resulting in loss of fee or possible contract termination with funds recovery.

 

[Buster1]

Gov contracts for small arms require adherence to a plethora of requirements from ISO facilities (Made with quality machines, quality processed by people trained to operate said equipment and processes), Material Traceability Certification (So that inconell you speced is actually the real alloy and not some Chinese knock off that's going blow up when you go full auto), Strict testing in lots to ensure the end product is within specification, Bonding or Insurance to ensure the financial health of the company you are contracting with so they can pay their bills and vendors (Which will prevent them from cutting corners), and most importantly.....passing strict testing in a scientific environment in a statistical significant numbers to have a high degree of confidence the end product will perform as advertised. And throughout performance of the contract they are subject to surprise visits and inspections, can pull any product off the line to measure/test it; with failure resulting in loss of fee or possible contract termination with funds recovery.

Enjoy your PSA made with chineese parts by high school dropout functional retards making $12/hr on garbage machinery, with no QA/QC with parts from vendors that most likely contained the rejected batches from the same same companies you want to ostracize.

But yea you know what your talking about...............

Pretty full of yourself, ain't ya?

 

[CamoDeafie]

Rule #1. Be excellent to each other.
Anyways. "Lowest bidder"?

 

[American123]

Personally, when I overpay heavily for a rifle, I like to justify my overpayment by putting down other brands that cost less But accomplish very close to if not exactly the same thing. Just kidding, I don't, but then again I also think a good minivan is far more interesting than a fancy two seater sports car. Opinions vary.

 

[nk02442]

LPTA is what he is thinking of, Lowest Price Technically Acceptable.

Rarely are anything but very simple service and contracts LPTA. Its usually a combination of best value and long term performance, along with about a dozen other factors with a complex procurement like small arms.

Some of us do this for a living, some clearly don't.

 

[nk02442]

Personally, when I overpay heavily for a rifle, I like to justify my overpayment by putting down other brands that cost less But accomplish very close to if not exactly the same thing. Just kidding, I don't, but then again I also think a good minivan is far more interesting than a fancy two seater sports car. Opinions vary.

Define overpay. Its an ignorant point of view of the subject matter.

Its cool to take passive aggressive stabs at people without providing any value or substance. Its how some of you circumvent the "Be Excellent" line while crying out like a woman when people are direct and call you out.

Not everything is an opinion and not all opinions are equal. The sooner you learn this the better off you will be.

 

[nk02442]

Pretty full of yourself, ain't ya?

Tell me where I am wrong?

Or are you going to deflect again?

 

[CamoDeafie]

Average cost of M4 Carbines ; $700 when calculating contract terms and units; so why should a civilian M4 copy be more than $700 for a Colt or FN Herstal ? Granted, labor, quality and rollmarks and so forth but.... why the markup from DOD contracts for civilian downgraded models? (Downgraded as in semiauto only)

 

[nk02442]

Average cost of M4 Carbines ; $700 when calculating contract terms and units; so why should a civilian M4 copy be more than $700 for a Colt or FN Herstal ? Granted, labor, quality and rollmarks and so forth but.... why the markup from DOD contracts for civilian downgraded models? (Downgraded as in semiauto only)

What happens when you buy a Couple hundred thousand Units at a time via negotiated contract Vs a single unit at retail?

What is the difference between buying direct from the manufacture vs buying from a retialer who bought it from a distributor who bought it from the manufacture, with each layer marking the product up for profit.

They are not the same guns, they aren't made on the same machinery, they require different parts/assembly lines; and they do not come with the same warranty or support.

FN and Bushmaster when they had the contract could not use the TDP for commercial guns. Doing so would violate the terms of the contract and they would be sued for tens or hundreds of millions along with getting the contract canceled for cause.

For the better part of the last 20 years you could buy a new Colt 6920 or the even better 6720 for $800. The dealer cost is around $700-750 on them. By far the best value on the market. If you failed to act, get mad at yourself and no one else.

There is also the pesky issue of it being illegal to sell something to government for more than you do on the commercial market minus support costs.

So what is your question?

 

[Flopsweat]

What happens when you buy a Couple hundred thousand Units at a time via negotiated contract Vs a single unit at retail?

What is the difference between buying direct from the manufacture vs buying from a retialer who bought it from a distributor who bought it from the manufacture, with each layer marking the product up for profit.

They are not the same guns, they aren't made on the same machinery, they require different parts/assembly lines; and they do not come with the same warranty or support.

FN and Bushmaster when they had the contract could not use the TDP for commercial guns. Doing so would violate the terms of the contract and they would be sued for tens or hundreds of millions along with getting the contract canceled for cause.

For the better part of the last 20 years you could buy a new Colt 6920 or the even better 6720 for $800. The dealer cost is around $700-750 on them. By far the best value on the market. If you failed to act, get mad at yourself and no one else.

There is also the pesky issue of it being illegal to sell something to government for more than you do on the commercial market minus support costs.

So what is your question?

You've made a few good points but it's hard to hear them over the sound of your arrogance.

 

[titsonritz]

For the better part of the last 20 years you could buy a new Colt 6920 or the even better 6720 for $800. The dealer cost is around $700-750 on them. By far the best value on the market. If you failed to act, get mad at yourself and no one else.

I remember a few years back Brownells was selling complete Colt M4 lowers for $244 shipped (might have gone even lower) using their coupon code at the time. One could then pick up a Colt 6920 OEM1 or 2 and handrail of choice be under that. Oh the good ol' days.