"Cheap" versus High End ARs

[Boboclown]

Speaking of KAC; for what reason is the 7.62 M110 SASS system/deployment kit worth $23,000+, even accounting for its $1,500 suppressor?

Supply and demand. Its not like there's thousands and thousands of them.

Personally, if I had the 20 grand or more to spend, I'd be getting a Galatz sniper and a SVD. Or a SVD and a tigr to convert to a SVDS. While a KAC would perform better than the aforementioned guns, a KAC is still not a galatz, svd, or svds.

 

[Flopsweat]

Supply and demand. Its not like there's thousands and thousands of them.

Personally, if I had the 20 grand or more to spend, I'd be getting a Galatz sniper and a SVD. Or a SVD and a tigr to convert to a SVDS. While a KAC would perform better than the aforementioned guns, a KAC is still not a galatz, svd, or svds.

For that money I'd buy a bike. Or a used car.

 

[CamoDeafie]

For that money I'd buy a bike. Or a used car.

Indeed. Its claimed that the M110 has maximized parts commonality with AR15, outside of the obvious upper and lower receiver halves assemblies , the barrel, and BCG.. I really wonder just what ar15 parts it uses..

 

[PORSCHE928S4]

At this time as long as it works "YOU ARE GOOD TO GO !!!" the name does not make a difference and fire comes out the end .

 

[nk02442]

We have guys saying you cannot build a high end AR, but it's done all the time:

Building a CMP Match-Grade AR Service Rifle for the President's 100 - The Truth About Guns

&#9664Previous Post Next Post▶ In the first article in this series I detailed the history and legacy of the President’s 100 rifle match held annually at the Camp Perry National Matches. The President’s 100 has changed over the years and the gear used in it is very different than what used to be...

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

To the doubters I asked them if they had a rifle that they would put up against a build I know of sporting a Sionics 1 x 8 twist barrel with a Toolcraft BCG (upper and lower are Spikes.) After a 10,000 plus round count, the groupings can be held to under an inch with Black Hills ammo. I tried to order a barrel after learning of that, but Sionics isn't currently selling them since all of them are being put on Sionics built rifles.

A NRA HP rifle is not a combat rifle.

You should ask the guys at the AMU who are the top competitive shooters in the world, who build their own rifles, who also happen to train some of the top combat units in the world about this.

A match rifle would make a terrible duty rifle.

A rifles grouping as far as what matters is about 10th down on priorities for a duty gun. .223 guns have very long barrel lifes. Its not impressive, especially in a CL barrel. A quality CL barrel should last between 15-20K before you see accuracy degradation.

You just don't shoot enough or have enough experience to understand this is not some impressive feat, but just par for the course.

You are trying to prove apples with oranges.

 

[DB is Here]

Knock off the petty jabs already, it's like I'm stuck watching my sisters kids.

 

[nk02442]

Supply and demand. Its not like there's thousands and thousands of them.

Personally, if I had the 20 grand or more to spend, I'd be getting a Galatz sniper and a SVD. Or a SVD and a tigr to convert to a SVDS. While a KAC would perform better than the aforementioned guns, a KAC is still not a galatz, svd, or svds.

There is alot of support and contract compliance built in there as well. Just the cost of maintaining the requirements of the contract, is a few $K per gun sold. All soft goods have to be Berry Compliant which drives up cost, as well as name brand accessories.

These are also not high volume guns. The Army buys a few hundred at a time, before they moved on, and KAC can only produce so many per month while keeping up standards. The k1 and K2 guns for Delta were alot more capable and cost reasonable. Big weapons procurement are expensive by their nature.

Its frustrating for the taxpayer when they see a huge number, and even as someone who administers these contracts for the gov, it can be angering sometimes but there is alot more than most people see on the surface.

The ammount of BS the gov requires its contractors and vendors to deal with makes everything more expensive and if has to be worth the time otherwise no one would bid.

Its the main reason margins for gov contractors are so much higher than the private sector. Doing business with the Gov is much more expensive.

 

[The Resister]

A NRA HP rifle is not a combat rifle.

You should ask the guys at the AMU who are the top competitive shooters in the world, who build their own rifles, who also happen to train some of the top combat units in the world about this.

A match rifle would make a terrible duty rifle.

A rifles grouping as far as what matters is about 10th down on priorities for a duty gun. .223 guns have very long barrel lifes. Its not impressive, especially in a CL barrel. A quality CL barrel should last between 15-20K before you see accuracy degradation.

You just don't shoot enough or have enough experience to understand this is not some impressive feat, but just par for the course.

You are trying to prove apples with oranges.

Do you get paid for this comedy routine? You claim that a quality rifle cannot be built by an individual. You're wrong. Now, can a combat rifle? If I can show you a couple that have handled a variety of loads and gone 10,000 rounds, then I can respectfully disagree with you.

Maybe the average guy cannot take commercial parts and build a rifle as good as Daniel Defense, but a decent armorer who is building his own rifle that he's willing to bet his life on can build one as good as any factory. Insofar as shooting, I did more shooting at the age of 17 than you did your entire life. Not bragging, just being factual. I don't know what you're getting out of belittling other posters, but you should ask before you assume.

I used to be in a group and one of our guys, Mike Blackburn, used to throw silver dollars in the air and shoot holes in them. He once got to perform for dignitaries from foreign governments and he tried to tell them he wasn't that great of a shot and pointed at me claiming I was as good as him. Honestly, I wasn't and could never do what he did. But, the real point is, I grew up around real shooters. I can build an M1 Garand or M1a to withstand any combat situation, so you're talking to the wrong guy when you claim it can't be done. There is no logical reason that an individual shooter with a gunsmith background cannot use existing parts, measure them individually and take quality parts to build a combat rifle on an AR platform.

You are wrong about factory guns being made with outsourced parts when needed; sometimes combat rifles have parts in them made by the same people on the same machines that make commercial rifles. I really don't know everything about the AR, but I've been around them long enough that I have a SOCOM receiver made by Armitage International. And, if you don't know the story behind those receivers, then you probably don't know much more than I do. But, really your holier than thou, arrogant and condescending attitude is puerile fantasy and I wish you well in convincing everyone here that we're idiots and you know everything about building rifles.

 

[nk02442]

Do you get paid for this comedy routine? You claim that a quality rifle cannot be built by an individual. You're wrong. Now, can a combat rifle? If I can show you a couple that have handled a variety of loads and gone 10,000 rounds, then I can respectfully disagree with you.

Maybe the average guy cannot take commercial parts and build a rifle as good as Daniel Defense, but a decent armorer who is building his own rifle that he's willing to bet his life on can build one as good as any factory. Insofar as shooting, I did more shooting at the age of 17 than you did your entire life. Not bragging, just being factual. I don't know what you're getting out of belittling other posters, but you should ask before you assume.

I used to be in a group and one of our guys, Mike Blackburn, used to throw silver dollars in the air and shoot holes in them. He once got to perform for dignitaries from foreign governments and he tried to tell them he wasn't that great of a shot and pointed at me claiming I was as good as him. Honestly, I wasn't and could never do what he did. But, the real point is, I grew up around real shooters. I can build an M1 Garand or M1a to withstand any combat situation, so you're talking to the wrong guy when you claim it can't be done. There is no logical reason that an individual shooter with a gunsmith background cannot use existing parts, measure them individually and take quality parts to build a combat rifle on an AR platform.

You are wrong about factory guns being made with outsourced parts when needed; sometimes combat rifles have parts in them made by the same people on the same machines that make commercial rifles. I really don't know everything about the AR, but I've been around them long enough that I have a SOCOM receiver made by Armitage International. And, if you don't know the story behind those receivers, then you probably don't know much more than I do. But, really your holier than thou, arrogant and condescending attitude is puerile fantasy and I wish you well in convincing everyone here that we're idiots and you know everything about building rifles.

You are misquoting me. You are also taking things out of context and missing nuance.

If you go back and read what I typed you would see this.

What is a SOCOM receiver? Would love to hear this story.

Lets try a little less hyperbole. People may take you serious if you stop making things up.

 

[The Resister]

You are misquoting me. You are also taking things out of context and missing nuance.

If you go back and read what I typed you would see this.

What is a SOCOM receiver? Would love to hear this story.

Lets try a little less hyperbole. People may take you serious if you stop making things up.

I don't make things up, son. Not misquoting you; not taking things out of context. I think if anyone takes you seriously, they might consider suing their brains for non-support. Being arrogant and condescending seems to work for you, so with that, you're the man.

 

[nk02442]

I don't make things up, son. Not misquoting you; not taking things out of context. I think if anyone takes you seriously, they might consider suing their brains for non-support. Being arrogant and condescending seems to work for you, so with that, you're the man.

You second sentence is completely made up and something I never said.

Once again. If you want to quote me, at least get it right.

But at this point I got no desire to debate with you. The mods are already pissed and your inability to accurately represent what people say makes a logical debate impossible.

Done derailing this thread. You can lead a horse to water yada yada.

 

[Kruel J]

So are PSA rifles battle ready?

 

[rjmt]

Before Firearms News it was Shotgun News. Back in those days they did an article about AR lowers. They had all the lowers in three classes:

High end quality receivers
Mid Tier lowers
Budget receivers

Of course your Daniel Defense, BCM, LMT, and POF were high end; Aero, Spike, and believe it or not, the Anderson lowers were Mid Tier. Omni, and Frontier were junk.

I have an old '89 PWA lower on my .264 LBC target rifle
couldn't ask for a better lower

one old Colt pre-ban H-BAR - what else can I say on that one

the rest are Anderson lowers, and SAA uppers, but high end barrels, BCM BCGs and Geissele triggers

have 2 Adams Arms piston kits with roller cam pins
can only say they work as advertised - fire a 30 rnd mag and drop the bolt in your hand with no heat

use Smith Vortex flash hiders on all my ARs, including the Grendels

Tubbs flat wire springs in all

 

[rocquenroll33]

Before Firearms News it was Shotgun News. Back in those days they did an article about AR lowers. They had all the lowers in three classes:

High end quality receivers
Mid Tier lowers
Budget receivers

Of course your Daniel Defense, BCM, LMT, and POF were high end; Aero, Spike, and believe it or not, the Anderson lowers were Mid Tier. Omni, and Frontier were junk.

I built an AR lower with a PWA lower and LMT upper. That thing was so tight that it took two of us and a rubber mallet to get the handguards on. PWA was LMT before LMT bought them out. So, admittedly those are really built to close tolerances. However, I once built an AR for a SHTF weapon from existing parts I owned. It was an Aero upper and lower with a Sionics barrel, Toolcraft nickle boron BCG, Troy rail and sights, Smith vortex flash hider, and a PSA enhanced trigger group. In every respect those rifles were equal as best as I could tell, but when money was tight, the PWA was the first to go.

Anyway, before building another AR, I really want to know what makes a Daniel Defense BCM or any other high end weapon any better than those you can build for a third less. The only AR that seems to be worth the price difference to me is the POF. There is a difference in their piston AR. But, when I'm using high quality 4150 chrome lined barrels (MPI inspected, etc.), quality nickle boron BCGs, good triggers, and other high end parts, what am I getting difference over the top tier DI firearms? Tacticool looks? Name brand? BTW, have you ever gone to Sionics website and witnessed what kinds of abuse their barrels can take?

I really am ignorant. I've never had 2 grand to drop on any firearm all at once. Ended up with that in a couple over the course of a year and a half. But, my favorite build has yet to malfunction except once on bad ammo. Rapid fire, don't clean it, and it still holds just over 1 inch groups at 50 yards with iron sights. What would I get in difference to plunk down the big bucks?

My S&W M&P Sporter will do 1" groups @ 50 yds iron sights, or 3" at 200 yds with the 1-4X affordable scope...less than $750 in the whole gun...why would I build one to do that for 2 grand?

 

[The Resister]

So are PSA rifles battle ready?

No

 

[rjmt]

My S&W M&P Sporter will do 1" groups @ 50 yds iron sights, or 3" at 200 yds with the 1-4X affordable scope...less than $750 in the whole gun...why would I build one to do that for 2 grand?

because you can and get it by your wife
my .264 LBC cost $2500 over an 18 month period, scope alone is over $1200 (Night Force)
used an old PWA receiver that had been in my gun safe since '89
but I bought one piece a month for 18 months - only the scope raised an eyebrow
she doesn't even know it's here

 

[American123]

No

Why?

 

[The Resister]

My S&W M&P Sporter will do 1" groups @ 50 yds iron sights, or 3" at 200 yds with the 1-4X affordable scope...less than $750 in the whole gun...why would I build one to do that for 2 grand?

Actually I'm trying to exit this thread, but here is why:

1) I am certain that one day soon they will outlaw ALL AR rifles

2) If you own one and want to keep it, you will need to know how to work on it and make it do what you want it to do

3) A gunsmith might not be available

4) You can custom build a rifle to YOUR specifications. For example, my ideal build would be the Sionics 1 x 8 twist rate barrel, chrome lined with a WMD in nickel boron BCG and the Navy Seal flash suppressor (I think Smith Enterprises makes them) It would have the highest quality gas tube I could find. You get the picture

5) There is certain satisfaction in owning something that YOU built and that you can fix

And it doesn't cost 2 grand to build one - unless you're buying stuff for the name as opposed to the quality. The tools cost quite a bit, but every member of your family needs their own rifle so the tools pay for themselves at some point. Gunsmiths don't work for free.

 

[The Resister]

Why?

SOME of their parts are good; some are junk. For example, over here where I live Iraqveteran8888 does these meltdown videos on Youtube. He took a PSA and the gas tube failed in 400 rounds of sustained fire. PSA does sell CHF barrels made by FN so those ARE combat barrels. Their cheap nitride barrels... not up to the abuse. You cannot get the accuracy nor the durability from an $80 rail that you can from a $200 rail. You could upgrade a little at a time as some stuff wears out, but if you knew what you put in your rifle, there would be no doubt. There are small things and PSA does buy parts from a variety of sources. I had a long talk with a guy from their tech dept. that sent me a malfunctioning upper and PSA couldn't fix it. I hated the feel of the charging handle and swapped it out for a BCM... upper problem solved.

 

[DB is Here]

Here's my two cents:

I have built a few AR's they shoot fine and have never had a malfunction, about 3-4K rounds down each. Two are plinkers, one is a 300BO truck Gun.

It SHTF they'll work, but I'll be using my 14.5 lightweight Noveske, the others can go to those that need one if the situation is dire enough. I'll use the Noveske because I feel most secure with it as its what I shoot the most.

Im no AR expert, just a guy with two cents.