Another rant on the M4

[biggie24420]

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[Onebigelf]

My military experience? USN. (Launch cruise missiles from 350 miles offshore. Drink coffee.)

My experience with firearms is a bit more varied than that. I think the problem is in trying to address all of the needs of the modern military with a single rifle and cartridge. Either you are going to have to make compromises, or you are going to have to have different weapons for different missions. The M-16 was chosen for it's advantages over the M-14 in jungle warfare at limited ranges and long patrols without resupply over secure supply lines. It's range was limited when faced with the possibility of engagement in eastern Europe, so doctrine was modified - artillery and air support to balance a numerically superior foe, mechanized infantry to maintain mobility. The awkwardness of the m-16 for mechanized infantry led to the M-4. The M-4 is fine for urban warfare, but has flaws at longer ranges. This becomes an issue when terrain or ROE prevents the use of air and artillery support. At each stage there is a problem and at each stage a solution is devised. The question is, what is the solution at THIS stage? A modification of the weapon? Replacement? Or a change in tactics? Whatever it is, it probably is NOT "ignore the problem".

John

 

[ZachS]

Well I should have also mentioned that there are videos out there to prove that the 5.45x39 is a better round when compared to 5.56x45. Some of you guys take this personal and get all pissy..... why? if you like your 5.56... well good for you! I LOVE my 5.45 and so I choose to use the 5.45 over the 5.56. Also just because someone isn't military it doesn't mean they don't know anything....... I get the impression that some of you are pretty much telling people to shut up because they don't have military background or something......... that's not cool man. I don't need to have military experience to figure out that the 5.45 is a better round. Look at the video and you tell me that the 5.45x39 is not a better round.

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/5354556/Ak_74_vs_M16_A1_Durchschlagsvergleich_der_Kugeln

I can't believe you think that video proves anything about the 5.45x39... First, it doesn't even mention which loading of the 5.56 was used. Second, it doesn't actually compare their performance - all we see is that the 5.45 went through a few more boards than the 5.56 (but not how many boards each went through) and that the 5.45 penetrates a block of clay instead of leaving its kinetic energy inside. Those two demonstrations, I'd submit, are nearly meaningless as far as real-world performance against human beings is concerned. The clay demonstration may well show that the 5.56 is more deadly, and the board test may only relate to differences in bullet composition. I'm just guessing, though, because like you I don't actually know anything about the rounds being fired in the video - powder charge, bullet weight, bullet composition. Like you, I also don't know the barrel lengths of the guns that fired them.

The ballistics of these rounds is very similar, and both have killed thousands upon thousands of people. Doubt you could go wrong with either. If you have any actual evidence showing otherwise, I'm sure everybody here would love to see it.

I do suspect that most of the reloaders on here could cook up a loading of 5.56/.223 that is far superior to anything that ever came out of a tuna can with funny writing on it.

 

[biggie24420]

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[ZachS]

Well when I have more time I will do more research and see. I also have a friend that knows more about these things so maybe I need to contact him and find out more, but the AR and the AK74 rounds are pretty close so all I'm saying is that in my OPINION the ak74 round is better.

My two cents (two more, anyway) is that you'd be best served by doing your own research instead of relying on your friends' opinions... unless your friends are actually experts.

 

[The Quiet Man]

Why is it that everyone who wants something else always attributes it to something they read, rather than personal experience?
...

It just seems to be human nature, MountainBear. Those with the least to offer generally have the most to say. It's surely not limited to this board or firearm related subjects.

 

[Gunner3456]

Well I should have also mentioned that there are videos out there to prove that the 5.45x39 is a better round when compared to 5.56x45.

I suppose it depends on the gun. I have two AK 74's and they sure aren't nearly as accurate as my AR-15's. Maybe I just got lemons? I have a Romanian and a Bulgarian, from Century IIRC. They do fire very dependably, as do my AR's but I'm not in the sand.

 

[Gunner3456]

Why is it that everyone who wants something else always attributes it to something they read, rather than personal experience? I am not a combat veteran. I've never seen what any of these rifles can do on anything but paper and clay pigeons. All my opinions come from individuals I have known who are combat veterans. They all seemed to be okay with the M4. But I don't know from personal experience...

MountainBear, just for giggles I shot a buck with an AR-15 this year - 5 round mag of course. I paced it at 200 yards and I was using iron sights.

When I cut that deer up I couldn't believe the damage. I could find only one small fragment of the bullet and the rest of it had broken up and it tore that deer's heart and lungs to shreds. More like it "blew" them up. It first passed through ribs of course. It didn't exit the back side whatsoever.

This was just an XM193 mil spec 55 gr factory bullet. I've chronied that batch at 3150 fps.

Please don't shoot me with one of those?

 

[Gunner3456]

Well I should have also mentioned that there are videos out there to prove that the 5.45x39 is a better round when compared to 5.56x45. Some of you guys take this personal and get all pissy..... why? if you like your 5.56... well good for you! I LOVE my 5.45 and so I choose to use the 5.45 over the 5.56. Also just because someone isn't military it doesn't mean they don't know anything....... I get the impression that some of you are pretty much telling people to shut up because they don't have military background or something......... that's not cool man. I don't need to have military experience to figure out that the 5.45 is a better round. Look at the video and you tell me that the 5.45x39 is not a better round.

http://www.myvideo.de/watch/5354556/Ak_74_vs_M16_A1_Durchschlagsvergleich_der_Kugeln

That's nuts. All it shows is that the 5.56 deposits its energy in the target, and that the 5.45 goes right through the target. The 5.45 makes nice clean holes clear through the target and the 5.56 stops shorter. That tells me that the 5.45 is far inferior at inflicting internal damage. Look at the way the 5.56 blew that hunk of clay up on the back side. No one wants a nice clean hole right through the BG.

 

[biggie24420]

I'm sorry guys but i'm moving my comment off here because this has clearly turned into a joke...... best wishes and good luck with the rest of the thread.

 

[Gunner3456]

Well fist let me say that I don't like the 5.45 just because of one asian video. It's gonna take me some time to come up with the info that is scattered all over the net.

So what you're saying is that you'll get back to us when you know what you're talking about. Good idea.

 

[biggie24420]

So what you're saying is that you'll get back to us when you know what you're talking about. Good idea.

Wow...... I am very sorry I can't just stop making a living so I can show you some facts. So sad some of you have to be like this.

 

[Gunner3456]

Wow...... I am very sorry I can't just stop making a living so I can show you some facts. So sad some of you have to be like this.

Not at all. I just wouldn't take a position on something until I did have the facts. If you don't have time to research the facts, that's OK. Just get back to us when you have.

 

[Comunistul]

I like the 5.45 better! ! !

 

[Gunner3456]

I like the 5.45 better! ! !

I like Ford pickups better than Chevys.

 

[ZachS]

I like Ford pickups better than Chevys.

I like brunettes better than blondes!

 

[Comunistul]

I like brunettes that shoot the 5.45 better than blondes that shoot the 5.56 ahahahha

 

[Gunner3456]

I like brunettes that shoot the 5.45 better than blondes that shoot the 5.56 ahahahha

That's because you don't want to get hurt if she shoots you.

 

[Comunistul]

Oh gunner, willing to put your money where your mouth is?

I'll bet you anything that it hurts if YOU get shot with a 5.45.

 

[MountainBear]

I prefer diet pepsi to diet coke...

Sorry I missed your ranting today biggie. I guess I was out trying to make a living, which, if I'm not mistaken, is what you said you were too busy to do to enlighten us as to why the 5.45 is better than the 5.56 round. I'm but a humble gunsmith and armorer. I know nothing about guns except that I don't know as much as my friend who spent three years in the kitty litter using the round...