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Another rant on the M4

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by Chee-to, May 26, 2010.

  1. Chee-to

    Chee-to Oregon Well-Known Member

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    U.S. Military Reconsiders Army's Use of M4 Rifles in Afghanistan

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/05/25/military-reconsiders-armys-use-m-rifles-afghanistan/

    The U.S. military is re-evaluating the Army’s use of the M4 rifle in Afghanistan following concerns that the Taliban’s primitive AK-47’s are proving more effective.

    The M4 is an updated version of the M16, which was designed for close quarters combat in Vietnam. But while the weapon is better suited for the kind of urban warfare common in Iraq, some have questioned whether it is deadly and accurate for Afghanistan – where U.S. troops often find themselves in long-range combat.

    An Army study found that the 5.56mm bullets fired from the M4s don’t retain enough velocity past 1,000 feet to kill an enemy. In Afghanistan, forces are often up to 2,500 feet apart.

    “It just makes no sense,” said Maj. Gen. Robert Scales Jr., a Fox News military analyst.

    Scales said the M4 is “unsuitable” for Afghan terrain and “notoriously unreliable” in the first place. The Army Times reported on an Army weapons test three years ago that found the M4 performed worse than three other newer carbines when subjected to an “extreme dust test.”

    Problems with the M4 locking up were also cited in a study last year on a July 2008 firefight that left nine U.S. soldiers dead in eastern Afghanistan.

    The Taliban are meanwhile using heavier bullets that allow them to fire at U.S. and NATO troops from distances that are out of range of the M4.

    To counter these tactics, the U.S. military is designating nine soldiers in each infantry company to serve as sharpshooters, according to Maj. Thomas Ehrhart, who wrote the Army study. The sharpshooters are equipped with the new M110 sniper rifle, which fires a larger 7.62mm round and is accurate to at least 2,500 feet.

    As for what could ultimately replace the M4, the Army’s center for small-arms development is trying to find a solution.

    Col. Douglas Tamilio, program manager for U.S. Army firearms at the Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey, said the M4 has the advantage of more-rapid firepower.

    “The 5.56 caliber is more lethal since it can put more rounds on target,” he told The Associated Press. But he acknowledged the weapon is much less effective at 2,000 feet out.

    A possible compromise would be an interim-caliber round combining the best characteristics of the 5.56 mm and 7.62 cartridges, Tamilio said.

    Scales said the U.S. military simply needs to engineer a better weapon – he said the M8, a weapon that was under development before being halted several years ago, could be revived and improved for Afghanistan.

    “We’re the world’s largest superpower. Why don’t we just make one,” Scales said. “This isn’t rocket science. We’re not putting a man on the moon here.”
     
  2. MountainBear

    MountainBear Sweet Home, OR Well-Known Member

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    Yawn...

    Doesn't it seem like they're re-hashing the same article over and over? Do they think that if they tell us the same thing multiple times we'll all of a sudden believe them. When I start hearing my friends come back from the middle-east and Afghanistan telling me that they were undergunned (out of quite a few, none have said anything of the sort so far), I'll start caring. Until then, let the military deal with it, and I'll stay out of it...
     
  3. wakejoe

    wakejoe Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

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    This is getting old. :(
     
  4. The Quiet Man

    The Quiet Man rural Washington County, Oregon Active Member

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    and usually pushed by people who have never been in the military.
     
  5. AIRASSAULT18B

    AIRASSAULT18B Permanent Vacation Member

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    You guys hit the nail on the head. I think the moderators should lock these useless threads that go on & on about I know sombody who knows sombody that has a cousin that knows sombody who says the m4/m16-5.56mm systems are junk ,underpowered, etc. oh by the way he's not in the military & he shoots his Bushmaster in the backyard & it won't penetrate his phonebook.
     
  6. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Ardenwald, OR Well-Known Member

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    Good God this is getting old.

    Troll

    BeatDeadHorse.gif
     
  7. Silver Fox

    Silver Fox Puyallup, WA Well-Known Member

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    :deadhorse:

    Just had to be the one to put this here.

    SF-
     
  8. Spad

    Spad Kennewick,WA, the desert side Active Member

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    Is it really getting old? Isn't about time the shooting community really started pushing the US Army to develop a replacement for an old, outdated rifle, and cartridge. Over the years we hear constant compaints about the M-16 and the small cartridge. The specious argument about how many more rounds you can carry with the smaller cartridge is not too intelligent, why not issue B'B's or just plain .22. We can go on and on but I think it is high time we forget the bean counters, and concentrate on a new round& rifle for the troops. We have been engaged in a very good proving ground for quite a few years, Irag and Afganistan....Lets get going in the famed American shooting community. Barrett did and developed a superior sniper rifle, we have the background and expertise to make some real progress for the US forces. Spad
     
  9. toobigtofail

    toobigtofail PDX Member

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    As I understand it, the troops who want M-14s can get them. So what's the problem?
     
  10. Just Jim

    Just Jim Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it isn't the equipment that needs all the change but the way you fight wars. When you have a stand off enemy blasting you it would seem there are other ways to destroy them than go in with the troops (getting them killed).Which is cheaper, re-arming all your troops or sending in drones or artillery to defeat the enemy?

    jj
     
  11. MountainBear

    MountainBear Sweet Home, OR Well-Known Member

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    Just for clarification, what is your military experience?

    In deference to turn-around being fair play, I have done LEO work, but I was not allowed to join the military. Too many leg surgeries and other issues with my health (a source of a bit of bitterness, so please don't ask). I do not claim to know how an AR works in combat, however, I am a gunsmith and have knowledge about how various weapons systems work and the theoretical problems and benefits...
     
  12. Spad

    Spad Kennewick,WA, the desert side Active Member

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    We need a new rifle and cartridge, for this century....Thats all folks.........Time to stop worrying about cost etc., just get on the ball and do it. Spad (veteran who never fired a shot in anger, come to think of it neither was John Browning)
     
  13. Dutchy556

    Dutchy556 Bend, OR Member

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    SPAD - What exactly is the extent of your personal experience with the 5.56 round and AR15/M16 family of weapons?

    You don't seem to want to answer this question.

    We've heard it all before and I would venture that you're not convincing anyone who has significant trigger pulling experience on the platform.

    Are there better calibers out there for defeating certain barriers, maintaining ballistics at longer ranges, etc.? Yes, absolutely. But the 5.56 is still far from useless, underpowered, outdated etc...


    So again, what are your experiences that lead you to conclusions so contrary to those come to by many individuals highly experienced with the platform in question?
     
  14. Spad

    Spad Kennewick,WA, the desert side Active Member

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    My experience with rifles ranges from .22 to .458 African. My Experience with the M-16 is nil, shooting the .223 in a Ruger Mini I do and is fun. My point is that there are better platforms and cartridges out there now, so let us get ourselves updated for a better weapons system for our soldiers. In my military time my issue weapon was an M-1 carbine and other weapons. Spad
     
  15. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

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    Well, we're not shooting back anyway. Our ROI says to win the hearts and minds of the people. I think a white flag would be cheaper than weapons anyway.
     
  16. ThemGunsThough

    ThemGunsThough RIP City! Well-Known Member

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    I agree.
     
  17. CEF1959

    CEF1959 Willamette Valley, Oregon New Member

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    I think there are a bunch of dead Taliban (and maybe one or two civilians :paranoid:) who would differ if they could. There's both a military and socio/political component to the strategy. I don't know of any modern military commander who thinks ignoring the socio-political component would result in military success. [Frankly, I'm skeptical of the prospects of any meaningful success anyway, but that's a whole other topic.]
     
  18. Ramjet57

    Ramjet57 Nw Oregun Member

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    How far are they shooting them AK's :paranoid:
    And here I thought that an M4 at 500 yards is deadly and an AK is spray and pray for virgin's:p
     
  19. biggie24420

    biggie24420 Beaverton Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Delete
     
  20. MountainBear

    MountainBear Sweet Home, OR Well-Known Member

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    Why is it that everyone who wants something else always attributes it to something they read, rather than personal experience? I am not a combat veteran. I've never seen what any of these rifles can do on anything but paper and clay pigeons. All my opinions come from individuals I have known who are combat veterans. They all seemed to be okay with the M4. But I don't know from personal experience...